1984Echoes

I don't mind Bojan & Burks putting up big numbers for the Pistons, regardless whether it's a win or a loss... I think those guys can teach the kids how to make winning plays/ shots/ etc. Where it gets gratifying is when the kids play a really nice game too, so, I know the Hornets are at the bottom with us, but it's nice to see good games from Killian, Stewart, Duren, and even Knox contribute to getting a win (and not just Bojan & Burks...).

This is correct.

Now... I'm not trying to be facetious or sarcastic... I actually meant what I said... In a more serious tone...

Here's my analysis: I watched Goff in several games the past few weeks... The dude can throw! And get scores (lots of 'em) for the Lions! Good enough for me! Any numbers prior to this year are moot. Including his better 2017-18 numbers.

I seriously do NOT believe that the current Lions management is going to make their decision based on... "Is our QB on a rookie wage scale"?

The problem with this type of analysis is... Was Goff steadily getting worse each year, or was his supporting cast getting worse each year dragging his numbers down? I don't think you can separate the two which in my mind makes the analysis moot. The only two criteria in my mind is: right now, is he an effective QB for the team the Lions have built? Can the Lions win with him (including playoff games and Supers if we are so fortunate)?

I think Goff is the QB of NOW and the NEAR future. But that "near" future could be just for next year, or it could be for the next 3-5 years. I believe this is the unknown that is causing our dilemma. He obviously can run this offense. He obviously can produce high-scoring games for us. Lions management is obviously bought into him as their starting QB. The unknowns are: A) Does he falter if his O-Line and/or receivers diminish? He's done this in the past... but, if Holmes keeps those shelves stocked then, maybe it's just a moot point and not really a consideration. B) Can he win the Big Game? He got to the Big Game with a loaded Rams team, and could possibly do that if the Lions get loaded up. But he didn't win the Super Bowl, and McVay believes Goff had weaknesses where he couldn't handle adversity and improvise game-winning plays. Complete unknown to us (maybe it's true? maybe he's improved on that? doesn't look like it, but...?) and the cause of desiring a more talented QB. C) He's not the most talented QB. He does falter some under pressure. And make mistakes/ turnovers. He's a gifted game manager maybe, but is that it? Also, he's expensive compared to getting in a rookie contract QB. So... just how invested are the Lions in him anyways? I guess we'll find out soon enough. All of these issues are going to be rampant in our debates until... they actually draft the "future" QB of the Lions. This year or in any ensuing year. (I'll forego the possibility of trading for an existing NFL QB/ signing a FA QB for now...). And I have no answers to the questions I've raised above. I'm willing to give Goff some time at the helm. And I will have patience. At least until he loses a key game (:wink:). but I think I am primarily going to trust Holmes/ Campbell's judgement and, if they draft Stroud or any other QB in this draft, or none at all, I'll just take it from there...

If the Fed wants to get slower wage increases... They need to talk the 6 million or so Pandemic Early Retirees back into the workforce because those refuseniks are a main source of the super-tight labor market... AKA rapid wage expansion due to employer competition for the remaining scarce and available workers. In fact, companies are being reduced to poaching workers with bonuses and higher salary offers from other companies, and not from headhunters supplying available (in-between-jobs) workers...

Which... Does NOT change the FACT that Baez put up 2.6 WAR in 2022. His career WAR? 25.9. It doesn't matter how many swings and misses you want to show, or how ridiculous he looks trying to hit those sliders... he provides value at a high level. A higher level than Neifi Perez could ever dream of. What a completely ridiculous comparison. More ridiculous than Baez swinging at a slider. Neifi's CAREER WAR? 2.6.

I still have it in my head that he's a good goalie so I guess I would go with some mental block as well...

To be honest... if the cost were the same and one of my guys was actually available, I'd rather go RH'ed...

I like his 58% faceoff win %... but he's another lefty so we're still struggling on half the ice. I'm not using that as an argument against him... I'm just saying... if they made a trade for him, there's a secondary issue outside of Horvat that the Wings still gotta figure out how to fix it. I like the idea of a stronger #2 C though... But also, as stated, it might cost a lot to get him, will Yzerman trade the assets it would cost. Or will Stevie Y find someone more under-the-radar? Are these guys under the radar enough, good enough to take over a #2 or 3 centerman spot, or even obtainable (and at what cost... meaning, would Yzerman gladly pay the cost, even if steep, for...): Jack Roslovic - Columbus Nick Schmaltz - Arizona Robert Thomas - St. Louis (steepest cost, but my 1st choice) Jordan Kyrou - St. Louis Sam Reinhart - Florida

He was doing fine (not spectacular but decent enough) before that... Wha' happened?

So... just thinking about a few things (drafting a QB on the back-burner, emphasis on defensive playmakers, could use Kicking competition and backups at OL, RB, and QB (if the right guy is there))... I did a PFN Simulator and ended up with (making only 1 trade that I couldn't pass up... I didn't accept anything crazy/ ridiculous... but this one was just too good and not completely outrageous... I traded a 5th and down two spots with our pick in the 1st and gained #17 and a 3rd rounder, #71): This is who I ended up with: 4 Jalen Carter DT Georgia 17 Joey Porter Jr. CB Penn State 46 Jordan Battle S Alabama 60 Andre Carter II EDGE Army 71 DeMarvion Overshown LB Texas 78 Blake Corum RB Michigan 166 Joe Tippmann OC Wisconsin 178 Noah Ruggles K Ohio State A pass-rushing interior terror in Jalen Carter, a tough and lengthy CB in Joey Porter Jr., a playmaking all-over-the-field Safety in Battle, a pass-rushing DE that may grow into a complete starter, a tall, rangy coverage LB'er in Overshown, UM RB Corum, a 6' 6" athletic OC who may be able to play all along the line in Tippmann, and the top-rated Kicker out of college in Ruggles. Anything after this I think is icing...

Anyone get a Bill Cowher vibe watching Campbell on the sidelines...?

In the 2nd? Best talent that falls to us... premium towards that 3rd defensive key player but also, backup RB comes into play here. With two 2nd rounders, Weaver will figure taht out. In the 3rd and later rounds, either a falling QB they want to develop as a backup or more O-Line help/ depth. And the later rounds for whatever they don't get in the 3rd and... I'm also on board with using a higher round draft pick for any phenomenal kicker that is available (IF there is one) in 2023...

I believe I've seen some commentary on whether the Lions should draft a QB in the 2023 draft and I wanted to add some comments of my own... But I think I want to use the draft thread here for those comments so they don't get lost in the game threads... and I think this will be a hot topic all the way until they actually finish that draft. My thoughts on drafting a QB in 2023: A) Using a 1st rounder on a QB next year is problematic. It says that Goff is going to be replaced by the new QB... maybe sooner, maybe later. But... I don't think Lions management intends to do that AT ALL. Certainly not in 2023. I believe they bought into Goff (traded for him) right from the start. They aren't moving on from him. I don't want to say "period"; but I just do not see it realistically being on the Lions Radar. Maybe if he flops in the Super Bowl or the playoffs... but we're not there yet, obviously. It doesn't matter that we're in the best "position" to grab the next franchise QB... not if the Lions believe Goff IS their franchise QB. The Lions next move will be to extend him. I believe Goff is our starting QB, now and for the next 5-ish years. To me, that means no possibility of drafting a 1st round QB. B) After the 1st round... there are sometimes starting QB's found... but in my mind, starting in the 2nd round until the end of the draft is where I am looking for a good backup QB to draft and develop. And just as we need (IMO) a backup RB in case Swift falls apart (in fact, in my mind, it's a MUST in the 1st three rounds to draft another RB...), and could use another backup OC/OG... we have Nate Sudfeld as our backup QB so anybody we draft, outside the 1st, seems to me to be a useful pick to make if the Lions believe they can develop him into a capable backup or better... C) That being said... I want playmakers/ gamechangers drafted for all 3 levels of the defense. First and foremost... with our top three picks. Now, we may not be in the right draft slots to hit all 3 areas with our 1st three draft picks, or the draft may not fall our way just right... But if possible, before I even consider backups at RB or QB or OC/OG... I want those defensive playmakers. And at the top of the draft where we can get the highest level of those players. So, IMO (and feel free to disagree with me on the longevity of Goff as a Lion...), the MOST LIKELY 2023 draft includes selecting a game changing D-Lineman with the Rams pick (if it's not Anderson or Carter than they are looking at Myles Murphy...). If they fall out of range of these guys than they're looking at the top CB's with the Rams pick. Ringo might be worthy of a top-10 pick, not certain any other CB is... If getting a DL with the Rams pick, then we're looking at Porter at CB with the Lions pick, or Cam Smith or Chris Gonzalez... one of these guys (or two) should be available when the Lions take their own 1st round pick. If they miss on DL with the Rams pick, then they should grab Ringo and then still look for a DL with their own pick... guys like Tyree Wilson or Jared Verse or Nolan Smith. But also... depending how the draft falls, the Lions might also be looking at a top LB'er like Trent Simpson. I'm confidant Weaver will figure this out for the best two players for the Lions. But I'm 99.9% certain it's two defensive guys for us in the 1st and no one on Offense with those picks. Not even a franchise QB.

It's either: Trade Beverley in a simple package. Trade Westbrook for a poo-poo-platter (for the Lakers). Or send a poo-poo-platter to the Pistons and we release 3 out of 5 guys immediately, keeping Walker & Bryant and the '27 1st rounder (protected or not...). It works by adding Nunn and Brown and Toscana-Anderson or similar, who we release immediately after the trade. We like that trade but the Lakers won't like it and won't do it...

I thought the Lakers did NOT want to trade Beverley? Or did I read that wrong? They do, or don't want to trade him? If they do, they can make that trade work. Weaver's reluctance to trade Bojan though means maybe he can talk the Lakers out of protections... or we would (all here on this forum...) at least hope for that. PS EDIT: He should also demand Center Thomas Bryant IMO...

Replace Schoop please. I think he is effectively done. And insert Greene as I think he makes huge strides in 2023 which will replace anything Schoop could ever dream of...

I would be interested in the 2027 Lakers 1st rounder... on the basis that I believe that will be past their competitive lifespan and will most likely be a top 3 pick... I'm projecting there but... I think I'm in the ballpark. The last time we had a pick like that we drafted Milicic though... (1997 trade got them the 2003 #2 pick...) I don't see this trade working unless it's a poo-poo platter. For the Lakers. They either have to trade Beverly and Walker (or make-up players to get to Bojan's #'s but if they are not willing to trade Beverley...) or... do they want to dump Westbrook? I doubt it. But then they're getting a poo-poo platter and I don't think Weaver does that unless he gets back the players he wants/ needs... Westbrook poo-poo platter: Lakers trade Westbrook, Walker & Bryant plus 2027 1st rounder for Bojan, Bagley, Noel, Diallo, Joseph & Livers. And they'll end up dumping Diallo & Livers immediately... Zero chance of that trade but I was just having some fun...

PS: NFLTV is replaying the Lions game tonight at 8:15...

I'll have to remember to come back to this...

The flipside is... even before the 2024 season... If during the 2023 season the team fixes its issues with health, rotation, rookies (actually 2nd year players in 2023) performance woes/ team's hitting woes... and starts to show signs of life, and therefore... in the 2023 offseason we sign Manny Machado to the biggest offseason contract because he WANTS and MUST play for the Tigers in 2024... Does that change your narrative? PS: Eduardo and Baez decide they want to play with Machado too so they DON'T opt out... in fact, they're the two guys who talk Manny into signing with Detroit as long as he gets the BIGGEST contract which, apparently works... because....

So when the Tigers are in the Playoffs in 2024... Do we need to check in on you? "UI, you still there? Hello? Hello?"