1984Echoes
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Everything posted by 1984Echoes
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You're saying that Build Back Better is the same as trying to overthrow the Constitution of the United States? WTF is wrong with you?
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Holy Cannoli! So.. there's hope yet for Parker?!?! Or... SSS?
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And one more point: This is probably me, I certainly don't see it anywhere else on this board... But I have this OVERWHELMING feeling that we have the 1979 Tigers on our hands. V 2.0. Everyone else can feel I am totally off base here... I get that. But Tigers Rookies in: 1976 - Jason Thompson, Mark Fidrych 1977 - Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Lance Parrish, Jack Morris, Steve Kemp, Dave Rozema 1978 - 1979 - Dan Petry, Kirk Gibson, Tom Brookens, Lynn Jones 1980 - 1981 - Rick Leach 1982 - Howard Johnson, Glenn Wilson And it still took until 1984 to win a World Series. I hope we move faster than that, this time. And I hope we have the boatload of prospects, both pitching and position, that come up and build us a World Series team (or three). I offer no guarantees. (How the heck can anyone with prospects...?). And a lot of those talented players I listed above were traded for other players that contributed in 1984, or they crapped out by then (but WERE talented enough) through injuries or what-not, not necessarily sticking around all the way to a W.S. But I think Avila has built a farm system boat loaded with MLB talent, both pitching and position... and we are stuck waiting through shit years whilst that talent eventually makes its way to the Tigers. 2018 - Spencer Turnbull 2019 - Tyler Alexander, Greg Soto 2020 - Casey Mize, Tarik Skubal 2021 - Matt Manning, Alex Lange 2022 - Spencer Torkelson, Riley Greene (TBD), Alex Faedo, Beau Brieske, Joey Wentz 2023 - (projection, of course, probably Sept. callups, at best): Wilmer Flores, Reese Olson, Ryan Kreidler, Dillon Dingler, Wenceel Perez, Colten Keith (maybe earlier if they think Wenceel is ready for 2B (and time to move on from Schoop) and/ or the team wants to push Candelario at 3B and believe Keith is ready...) 2024 - rough guess: Ty Madden, maybe Gage Workman.
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I think kdog's original post was that we can't draft and develop anyone outside of the 1st round... So there are two sections in my post... a list of pitchers that we've drafted and developed outside of the 1st round, quite a few of them actually... And a list of position players from recent years who are still developing. I'm not calling it a success for the organization (the lack of position players drafted and now in MLB). I just said, like I think I just did above, that there will be successes with these position players... just with some patience. No position player successes right now... but there IS a pipeline of talent that we are currently developing. And that's NOT counting Tork & Greene since they are not allowed to be counted, since they are top 10 draft picks and top 10 draft picks don't count (per kdog, IIRC). And I'm not guaranteeing anything here... I just think that over the next 2-3 years, multiple of these guys will turn out to be impact players for the Tigers. PS: I forgot to mention Wenceel Perez, who I also really like a lot.
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There is a flipside to that which is that the market has tanked. It might NOT be a lowball offer, it may be the highest possible offer... given market conditions. And the same may be true of Correa. The market wasn't there for $340MM+ because of health concerns or for any other reason. He may lose health/ speed/ value and NEVER get the money that the Tigers offered.. based on whatever circumstances... But I don't fault the Tigers for trying/ making the offer... They didn't lowball him. They made an offer that THEY believed fair market value (health concerns and all...); which actually turned out to be the HIGHEST market offer (and therefore NOT a lowball... that's just in everyone's perceptions, in a down market for Baez that was FMV); and Baez didn't want to take that market offer. And I don't fault Baez for betting on himself either. Because he believes he can stay healthy for a couple years and reach the FMV that he thinks he can get to. But if he doesn't prove he can stay healthy... then the Tigers offer may have been the highest remuneration he will get for the rest of his career because of... market (health) conditions that went against him. In MB's example... because the market was against him he is going to rent for a year or more until the market comes back in his favor. That's EXACTLY what Baez did...
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Because he drafted and signed them? Because they are developing and.. you may have missed my overriding theme of the past couple of days but... Patience. I think they will be successes, but need more time. So, to me... patience. I know everyone is sick of that word...
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I thought it was a $295MM offer... Was it $275MM? I could swear it was 295...
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Oops.
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- 81+ wins
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I also wanted Correa because he was the best player, and I also didn't care about the $$$. But the bolded part? Are you kidding me? NO contract gets offered without Ilitch's approval. Especially the MONEY. So yeah... I DO KNOW that Ilitch CAPPED Correa's offer. And you know that's true also...
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Because it was ILITCH's decision to limit Avila's offer to the $295MM. In other words, Avila's hands were tied. But he had the balls to make the offer anyways. And once it was turned down, he got the least expensive of the big 6 players who (normally) is much more productive than he has been so far. Be honest: Did you criticize Baez after we signed him? Did you criticize Avila, at that time, when Correa turned us down and then turned to Avila? Because if you didn't, or if you even praised the Baez signing at that time, and you are only now turning on him after 20/20 hindsight... that would be... hypocrisy? I'm just asking. I don't remember what your position was.
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It's too early for all of those guys. But I like all of them. Doesn't mean any/ all will make it in MLB... but in my mind, that means... Patience. I like the pitchers they're drafting and trading for and developing (I like Jobe, but wish they would have drafted Mayer...) I like the position players that Avila is drafting now that DD is no longer demanding that fast-moving college players (so he could trade them) be solely and primarily drafted... And we haven't even gotten to Tork and Greene, who I both like. Besides, wasn't your complaint that we are getting nothing outside of our 1st rounders? Because that's not correct. And if you are ONLY talking about position players drafted outside of the 1st... Again, in my mind, that means patience. However terrible/ horrible/ hateful/ hated that word is...
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I don't fault Hinch/ Ilitch/ Avila for taking a shot. Even if it's a 2% shot. I mean, seriously, do you? They're not even allowed to take that shot? I don't know what their selling point was (Hinch: "Hey Carlos, it's ME!" ???), but it didn't work. OK, whatever, move on to the next guy. But to criticize them for trying to take a shot at the best SS on the market, even given Ilitch's financial constraints... Why?
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This is not correct. The "base" of the Democrats is NOT the extreme left. There are a large proportion of centrists, Independents, and "traditional" Democrats. The HARD left Democrats do not make up the bulk of the Democratic Party, and to Tater's point, even those people are trying to help other people with positive policies that in their mind, are good for the US. The BASE of the Republican Party is NOW primarily (the primaries PROVE that) right wing extremists who want to shit all over our Democracy and the Constitution of the United States. They want to establish a Fascist Dictatorship. The makeup of these two parties is NOT equivalent. So quit trying.
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I might be the only one. But I'm sticking to my guns.
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We'll see. Im guessing that Ilitch does NOT fire Avila. Not this year, not after this season, and not for the next couple of years. Maybe he gets kicked upstairs, but I'm just guessing here... he won't get fired. That means in a couple of years, we'll be able to see who is horseshit. The Tigers will either be in the dumps, under Avila, or in the playoffs, under Avila. So if I'm correct that Avila isn't getting fired... then... We'll see.
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If you want to change the conversation fine. But we were SPECIFICALLY talking about, and my response that you specifically quoted... Was about what fault lies in signing or not signing Correa. If you want to contribute to that conversation, fine. If you want to start a separate conversation, fine. But I'm not going to argue with you over your GENERAL dissatisfaction when you quoted my SPECIFIC statement that it is ILITCH's fault for not signing Correa, NOT Avila's.
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This is a DIFFERENT conversation. The conversation at hand is whether it is AVILA's fault or not, for signing Baez instead of Correa. Are you able to stay on point, or not?
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Where I would disagree with this, is: Spencer Turnbull - 2014 #63 pick (2nd round). Tarik Skubal - 2018, 9th round. Greg Soto - International signing. Wilmer Flores - 2020, undrafted FA signing. Tyler Alexander - 2015, 2nd round. Will Vest, 2017, 12th round. Joe Jimenez - International sign. Beau Brieske - 2019, 27th round. Jason Foley - 2016, undrafted FA. Jake Rogers - trade. Dillon Dingler - 2020, 2nd round. Kody Clemens - 2018, 3rd round. Ryan Kreidler - 2019, 4th round. Roberto Campos - 2019 International signing. Christian Santana - 2021 International signing. Colten Keith - 2020, 5th round. Daniel Cabrera - 2020, 2nd round. Gage Workman - 2020, 4th round.
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One other point for everyone whining about Avila signing Baez instead of Correa: This is not an AVILA problem. Your criticism of Avila is NOT correct because it is not an Avila problem but an... ILITCH problem. ILITCH didn't want to go to 10 years/ $350MM. ILITCH put a cap on what kind of contract/ team's annual salary he would allow. ILITCH agreed to the Baez contract, but NOT a Correa contract exceeding what Avila offered (under ILITCH's direction/ approval). The criticism of Avila is completely and totally UNWARRANTED. IMO.
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And I think Avila IS the person to build a winner. So... there's that.
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This team needs to be "on the cusp" before they spend more. And they're just not quite "there" yet.
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In other words: Avila read the market correctly. IE: He and Ilitch did NOT want to have a $35/36MM AAV contract on the books, and certainly not a 10-freaking-year $36MM AAV contract on the books. Ergo: Baez. And all the warts that he comes with.
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There's no guarantee that Correa gets stuck waiting the market because no one else wanted to give him his $300+MM. 20/20 hindsight. He could have as easily gotten his $300MM+, Baez sign elsewhere, and we sign Iglesias. And then everyone on here would be whining about how Al "didn't read the market" and got stuck with Iglesias instead of bagging Correa or at least Baez. This criticism is complete and total horseshit.
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No, that's NOT fair. That's 20/20 hindsight... which is a BS (unfair) way to evaluate a decision.
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Right now, at this point in time, it is.
