1984Echoes

The politicians themselves? I think I spoke about the previously indirectly but let me do the direct thing... For those against Trump... but keeping their heads low so as not to get tossed out... I agree with you 100%. That they are both heroes and cowards. Cowards for not speaking truth to power... but heroes in that they are walking amidst a violent mob screaming for the head of anyone defying Trump. And staying in power to stop Trump "for the greater good". But... I don't think there are very many of those at all. The ones who did have the courage, previously, to speak truth to power and fight against Trump's lies and fascism... have already been tossed out on their heads. That would be Kinzinger, Cheney, and the others who voted Trump guilty in his impeachment trials and are no longer in Congress by MAGA voters revenge. Any who more closely resemble your description... I believe have been sniffed out by MAGA as "not true believers" and have also been primaried. Nastier MAGA Reps were voted into Congress as a replacement, or an unelectable MAGA candidate lost to a Dem. I think those who more closely resemble your description have been whittled down. To what number, I don't know. There are also a lot of politician Republicans who are now currently denouncing Trumpism/ fascism... so they cannot be true believers... and they may, or may not survive the next election... But they HAVE differentiated themselves from MAGA. I bolded the main part above where I speak specifically to your question and am in agreement. Everything else is added flavorings...

One further point: MAGA made a concerted effort to expel anyone who did not support Trump. Or his lies. They KNEW it was a lie (but let's throw some gray in here and say only a % were doing this even knowing Trump was lying... What % would that be?)... but if you didn't support Trump and his lies MAGA made an organized effort to eliminate politicians in primaries or otherwise, from office. "You either believe the lie I'm telling you or we're kicking you out." Again, what %-age of MAGA participated in this? A very high %-age, not out of innocence or "true belief", IMO. Very high.

So in my original divergent opinion I stated I disagree 100%. I must admit... That was a lie. I know some of the same type of people as you've outlined. But I know a vast amount of dudes that are lying on purpose and, funny enough, they will admit that they are lying on purpose, for ulterior motives. I believe there are a vast amount of MAGA who are doing this. But 100%? No, that was not reasonable... An exact %...? Too hard to know... It's not 100%... those would be the people you've mentioned... But it's not 0 either... and I believe the final actual % to be a whole lot closer to 100 than 0...

Either this... Or people who CHOOSE to purvey a lie, for ulterior motives. It is my contention that a vast number of MAGA who state that Biden "stole the election" KNOW that it is a lie... but CHOOSE to purvey the lie or proffer their belief in such a lie as a cover for supporting Trump. Their motives are some that I outlined above: They hate Democrats so much that they use the lie to support that hatred, or they prefer Trump's politics even if they know he is disgusting in order to provide cover for their love of his politics: "But Trump had the election STOLEN and therefore he SHOULD be President! I'm voting for him in 2024, guaranteed". I don't believe there are a lot of "innocent" MAGA... I believe that most of them KNOW it's a lie but are using it for cover. IMO.

This is SPECIFICALLY what I am speaking to...

And what I am saying is that a big portion of the general public DO have the same motivation. A big portion KNOW it's a lie but purvey it anyways because it suits their purpose. A big portion KNOW it's a lie but purvey it anyways because their hatred of Democrats supercedes their honesty. A big portion KNOW it's a lie but prefer to go "gaga" over Trump, as their savior, and repeat his every word rather than have an honest conversation or to think for themselves. You could call these "true believers" if you so wish. But people who know better, and hand over their capacity for judgement/ honesty/ etc... to a "leader", such as Trump... I call "sheep". There may be a big portion who do NOT know that they are being lied to, or have the capacity to differentiate... but I believe this immensely lower than those that KNOW it's a lie. This is not an issue of me needing to market to people with different beliefs or values... This boils down to cynicism. Or maybe "Truthsense" if you are a lover of "Dune". Or maybe I am just oversensitive to being lied to. As chas alluded to with my "super emotionals"....

Which adds nuance. How can one tell if someone is very naive and "falls" for a lie easily or innocently... or if someone is opportunistically purveying a lie to further their schemes? There are both.

I have thought my way through that absolutely. I've lived my entire under your version. It takes a thought, not emotion, to reason out why it shouldn't be that way...

I'm an Independent, so I don't have a side. Russia is NOT the reason Hillary lost to Trump. Russia however, DID interfere with our election. But I would call that a contributing, not deciding factor. Trump attempted to overthrow the Constitution of the United States with a violent coup attempt. That is a VALID reason under Constitutional Amendment 14 to remove Trump from the presidential ballot. Hillary never attempted that. Like it... or not. Sorry.

I have a different version of that: Basically, I 100% disagree. This is why: IMO, if someone's "belief" is based on a lie, then it's not "honest", it is, simply, a "lie". Whether they are lying to themselves, or have been lied to and fallen for a lie, or don't have the capacity to differentiate between the truth and a lie... or for any reason, if someone is perpetuating a lie than they are still, in fact, a liar and not honest. Conveniently, MAGA is simply following Trump's lead. Who created the lie of the election being stolen prior to a single vote even being cast. Also conveniently, following Trump's lead allows someone to "pretend" to be a true believer and to "honestly" argue that Biden actually "stole" the election, based on what Trump is "sayin'"... They are all liars. IMO.

"Honestly"???

If I have this correct, you're characterizing my post as a full-on rant... because why? Because i used more than two sentences? Are posts NOT ALLOWED to have more than two sentences? But this post is OK... do I have that correct? Ewsieg personally insults me and that's OK... right? I think your personal attacks on me are prejudiced smr. You are no longer objective, AT ALL, when I post. IMO.

I don't see any RANT up above whatsoever Sue. Who are you talking to?

He hates the poorly educated. They disgust him, and you know that. But the poorly educated white trash of this country LOVE him, and MAGA consists of 99.9% of poorly educated white trash. That's who he caters to, and you know that. But go ahead and be a hypocrite, or go ahead and proceed with a dishonest conversation instead of an honest one and tell me otherwise. PS: I loved SF's post because: (A) I would like to see the Supreme Court uphold the ruling. Did you have a problem with that? (B) I would like to see other states follow suit, particularly Arizona, Michigan, PA, and Georgia. Did you have a problem with that? (C) I would love to force Trump to be a write-in candidate in every state that is possible, because it would split the Republican Party in two. Then they could restart as two parties, one MAGA Republican Party, and one Establishment Republicans that decrees it's platform to be: a balanced budget, globalism, socially moderate, anti-fascist, experts in finance & foreign policy, secure borders, etc... Did you have a problem with that. I didn't even mean my love of SF's post to concern that last point that you decided to pick out of 4 different key points... But since you've mentioned it: Trump caters to the poorly educated and you know that to be true. If you wanna claim otherwise, I'm calling you a LIAR.

12... So yeah, Fidrych caught my fanboy's attention...

THIS... I would absolutely love.

How many times are we allowed to do this? "I can do this all day", in my best Steve Rogers voice....

Neil Young - Live Rust Paul Simon - The Rhythm of the Saints Sting & the Blue Turtles - Bring On The Night Mazzy Star - She Hangs Brightly Radiohead - In Rainbows The Beatles - Let It Be Cowboy Junkies - 200 More Miles Bjork - Debut Black Sabbath - The Mob Rules Depeche Mode - The Singles 86-98

We won't really be able to determine if people (in general) have had enough of Trump until the 2024 election ballots are all in and counted.

That's how I would look at it too...

That could just be the "trendy" or "cool" pick in the current polls but doesn't reflect voting booth reality. IMO. Basically same thing chas is sayin'....

Well he definitely left us with a lot of decent players/ prospects... But we don't know where those guys get us or if Harris can fix the holes/ get better talent/ develop them better/ etc... to build us into an actual contender.

We were discussing this earlier... Specifically because it looks like he Tigers are going to end up with quite a few of them. Faedo, Holton, Brieske, Wentz, Alexander (before he left). May have more than that too, counting AAA... "Failed starters" or "middle-relievers" or "good-only-1-time-thru-the-batting-order" guys... whatever we want to call them... I'd rather have 5 starters go 5 innings (or if it's a tandem to keep innings low then Mize/Manning can alternate 5 inning starts and 4 inning "closes")... And 3 or 4 middle relievers that can go 2-3 innings, and have those guys get us to the 8th/ 9th inning 1-inning-guys rather than go through 4 or 5 relievers every single game. That drops it to 2 relievers often, 3 relievers occasionally, and more than that infrequently.

And he just passed away... Loved his acting...

This reminds me of Industrial from the late 80's: Nitzer Ebb Front 242 Front Line Assembly Ministry Nine Inch Nails... especially when Reznor really started to get into sound experimentation...