alex

Yes, all good observations including ...missed some time with injuries of course... This is also another reason why it is not really conclusive for anyone to think just because a player is not 25 and under they do not fit on a 'winning' team or in their plans. Sure, they may not be a 'core player', but heck a core player could even be a 27-30 year old (prime for most). This is why you take extended looks at the Vierling's, Maton's, Nevin's, etc. Players also progress, change and hit their stride at different times. This is also why teams (including winning teams) bring in veteran players, especially those who have 'won' before as they can help in several ways (aka JHayward). Actually a team filled with all players 25 and under is going to be a minor league team.

All observations IMHO 'Spot on' - especially the last sentence in regards to 'most' everyday players these days (unfortunately) 👍 .

Yes, agree with most all of this. Heck, I remember the Oakland A's one year went into the post season during the mid 1970s with only eight pitchers and won it all. Of course back then there was only one playoff round and the WS. I had not thought much about a/the more deadened ball - but that makes sense as well.

Yes, there is all the revenue, etc. that goes into this thinking to keep rosters at 26 (which BTW way recently expanded from 25)... but in time it will change. It may take 5-10 years but as we learn more about physiology and related topics science will see that a peak conditioned athlete (and the players today are as such as compared to 20, 30+ years ago... and always exceptions mind you) simply will need more time off to recover from the max efforts they give in practice, pre-game, games, not too mention even off-season training, etc. Fans are not going to want to 'pay' to see a team in a series if their favorite players are injured ex MTrout and Ohtani for LAA. The players simply need extra rest. As they get older it becomes more prevalent. I have heard AJ talk about some of this. The team trainers are learning more and more about it. This may simply mean playing maybe 5 days a week instead of 6 or 7. Having two days off in a row. This would help. The mounting injuries are the proof of this. A peak conditioned athlete, less body fat, more muscle, more fast & slow twitch muscle fiber explosion, more trauma when diving on plays, HBP, etc. not to mention the sport specific training is overall very taxing to the system (especially ligament and tendon where are knowledge hopefully sooner or later will gain insight. We do know a bit about muscle though). Rest and nutrition is of utmost importance.

Remember he also traded another part of the past time big 3 rotation (Fulmer, 'Norris' & Boyd) for ROlson as well 😉.

Thank you much 🙏 🙂

All IMHO: Instead of posting several times I will be try to cover most of my thoughts, ideas and perspectives here 🙂. First and foremost the 'game has changed' and I would like to see MLB 'catch up' to what is going on and get the 26/40 man rosters numbers to 28-30/45. More than likely this will take a few more seasons and 'if' smart maybe cut the season to 150 games. Add in scheduled DHs and have a few more scheduled off days during season (and I am a throw back fan but feel this would be best for the players health and the game). With said this thread is about 'Evaluating Scott Harris' first year' for Motown Forum fans & contributors. I tend to think Scott Harris and AJ (Hinch) are understanding of how the game has changed. I have heard AJ make comments about 'so and so' becoming an 'option' as a starting pitcher. He has also mentioned the idea today of 'bridge' relievers ex a pitcher who can pitch 2-4 innings twice a week on avg. and have 3-4 of these types on the roster who can also start/open games if need be (maybe 80-90 IP a year). Harris has signed SPs in nos. before especially his last year in SF where he gave out several one year deals to potential 'bounce back' type candidates. Some made an impact some did not. It is a nos. game. This makes sense. DCone and others in the MLB media arena have repeatedly said each team has to have say roughly 10 SP types in the organization who could potentially go 150 innings. This does not mean all innings are at the MLB level however. Yet, in order for this to work - some of the players have to understand themselves that the game has changed. This is where 'opt' outs on MiLB deals could come in handy, etc. Let's look at the Tigers as an example. Mize, Manning and Skubal were going to be the 'big three' for 5-8 years? Again, baseball no longer works that way. For the past two years we have barely gotten 150 innings combined from the three (this type of projection can go back further to the Norris, Fulmer and Boyd expectations). For the last 10+ years or so this change in innings has come about in MLB. Most teams simply no longer have 3-4 SPs throwing 175 IP (ex apx 10 years ago Max, Verlander, Fister, Porcello, Sanchez did this during certain years. Go back 30-40 yrs Morris, Petry & Wilcox had 200 IPs and back further 250 IP from Lolich, McLain & Wilson). Again many teams have a similar history in relation to these types of numbers with SPs over the same past years. Interesting Data Facts (apx nos.): MLB years with SPs throwing 175+ innings: - 1993 72 - 2003 83 - 2013 70 - 2022 34 MLB years with SPs throwing 200+ innings - 1973 64 - 1993 52 - 2013 34 - 2022 8 MLB years with total Complete Games by SPs: - 1973 1105 - 1993 377 - 2013 124 - 2022 29 (sources: baseball-reference.com and mlb.com) It is obvious here how the game has changed in this particular aspect (and others). Fans, coaches, team personnel from top to bottom all need to understand this. It seems fans are the last to perhaps 'acknowledge' and/or become aware of this as most are casual and it takes time to break what was once imprinted. It would seem for a team to win today you have to have several SPs with the onset ability to throw 125-150 total innings. Personally, I do not see how it is going to work today without. If you look at stats - the Tigers do not have these projected nos. right now and hence less chances of winning. Too many bullpen days and position players pitching will not work. Injuries are a major factor for this. It can be called 'bad luck' but a good GM will know this going to take place and is where the game is now. Yes, some 'luck' is needed and there may always be a team or two that is an outlier, however it is Harris' job to find SPs that can help. I feel this can be done without too many 'top' draft pick resources going towards that goal. In other words draft mostly positional talent with 'some' pitching (scouts are big here), develop the arms drafted and then acquire other SP/RPs, pick them up via FAs, trades and/or the waiver wire. We have been fortunate to develop 'some' pitching talent (ex Fetter/Lund/Nieves and staff especially with bullpen arms) but we need to cover more innings. I do like the player development personnel changes throughout the system (RGarko, etc.), their approach, the changes implemented with exercise physiology, nutrition, rest, etc. Knowledge is being applied (and we are learning more about the body and in particular tendon and ligament recovery/regeneration which BTW, is behind muscle recovery data). .. The positional area may not be as tricky. Yet, there are still numbers that support the days of 6-7 positional players on the same team starting 150+ games has also changed dramatically. A true baseball fan could easily spat off a teams starting players (say 6-8 positions) 10, 20, 30+ years ago, especially their home club and the good teams. This again is no longer and positional 'depth' is very much needed as well. I do like the fact that Scott Harris does churn a bit. In other words aquire someone, take a look at them, try to help and see who may develop (say for a year or even a couple mos.). If not move on ex all the INFs brought in: JRizzo, NMaton, NSolek, SMcKinstry, JCamargo, IDiaz, ELeonard, AIbanez, TNevin, etc., to go with Short, Kriedler. Yet, remember we did similar with Goodrum, JJones, the Castros, etc. recently. However, it remains to be seen 'if' Harris & staff can come up with (identify) and develop more 'quality' types and even everyday players. I do understand the first year of churning. I was one who felt an experienced MLB type ex a Wil Myers, Brian Anderson type could have helped this past off season. That in retrospect was not so important. However, this upcoming off season we are losing some MLB experience with Miggy and these young players may need 'some' help and guidance from an actual player or two (again, all IMHO). I am not sure 'who', but a player (or two) who still has something left (can contribute on the field) while also offering some experience might be a good get ex a DJ LeMahieu, etc. type and/or get a player who can grow with the team ex GTorres (again just examples). Also, perhaps there may be a GM announced or someone with more responsibility appointed to help in this area. On another note, the team has to find a way to get better playing at home. There may be some psychology involved here... Grades: Being aware that the game has changed and depth will be of utmost importance. Grade: B Upgrading the development and scouting department (this will be the key to sustained success). Grade: A Draft, the last one looks good but only time will tell. I like the position player emphasis. Grade: A- One year with current team. I believe the team has taken steps in that there are some 'core' types here now and some possible help in the upcoming year. With said it 'seems' too much emphasis on 'versatile' type players is being done. I think you need starting players for say 6+ positions then the rest can be more platoon and bench types with the bench players being versatile as to help with the starters (ex rest, injuries, etc.). Grade: Current team - B Maybe the old adage of 'Add the big guns last' applies with player acquisition from outside - but it still remains to be seen if Scott Harris and staff can add impact players (IMHO, Comerica Park is not exactly a first choice to have a rebound offensive minded season). The team should compete next year for the division (unless extreme injuries) and even the time this year that they felt they had a chance (say up to end of August) was good for player development. Grade: Outside player acquisition - Incomplete

True for some. Yet, baseball is not a game where you have a set roster each year and if lucky a consistent roster on a good team. All teams have a percent of players coming and going to go along with regulars. Many players also figure things out at different stages of their career - even if only for a half season, a couple years, etc. Then more adjustment by the opposition. Baseball is a game of adjustments. Not saying Maton will or will not 'figure it out' but he might become a useful player for Detroit and or other teams. So many wrote of JCandelario, Willie Castro, etc. the list is endless throughout the years and the latter two are contributing this year on winning teams. Just saying you have to have a lot of depth in any organization this day and age - and many players can help on a team that is winning or playing it out, even if it is just for a year or two, etc.

Yes, those types of records that used to assure HOF status are NO longer. ex 3000 hits, 500 HRs, 300 wins, etc... Due to health and injuries, that are so much more common now - you may never see (possible rare exceptions) those milestone/numbers again (ex a player career starting from 2010+). It may be more of a 10-15+ year career with a 'good' amount of games played, some nos. (ex HRs, career BA/OBO, WAR, etc.) along with MVP(s), CY Young award (s), WS and team successes, etc. - the criteria more than likely will 'have' to change.

The two previous posts (JimCowan & Mtutiger), IMHO, hit spot on for the Candy situation. Hindsight will always be 20/20 and Echoes repeatedly mentioned (and of course a few others) before hand about keeping him and letting Schoop go - but no doubt contract status was 'part' of that decision as well.

I agree with the cheerful disagree! 😀 However, unfortunately Atlanta is one of the outliers that I mentioned, which occasionally can happen - and yet we are NOT thru the season and post-season yet. Unfortunately recent history will show just about no teams have 6-8 starting position players posting/starting 150 games anymore. Believe me I loved the days when we (as baseball fans) could rattle off starting lineups for most of the 'good' teams and the starters did play/start 150 games at 'most' (not all) positions. IMHO, there are several reasons why this simple does not happen much anymore (again, similar to SP's where teams simply do NOT have say 3 SP's giving them 200 innings, heck even 175) 🤕.

I agree with most all of this. However, the one thing long time baseball fans seem to forget is that the game has changed. Injuries are more prevalent than ever. Long gone are the days of penciling in 5-7 position players for 600 AB's or 150 games played. That simply does not happen anymore (there may be an occasional outlier). Just like SP and 3 guys on a team throwing 200 innings - simply - 'does not compute' anymore Will Robinson, lol. With said they are building 'some' depth and will have more players to chose from it seems (Leonard, WPerz, Malloy, etc... Heck even JJung has been looking good and perhaps does not get enough attention). Back to starting players - in a similar fashion most teams know they need 10 SP 'options' in the org to 'potentially' give apx 125-150 innings at the MLB level these days. Again, your post makes sense and reads well - but depth is utmost this day and age. IMHO, I would personally like to see Scott Harris somehow come up with a MLB hitter who can perhaps be here for awhile via trade this off season. Yea FA's are thin this up coming off season as KDog, Echoes and many others have pointed out and like players, the GM needs to show he can do the job as well. A player who can help and be an influence on this team as it needs a professional 'bat' in the order and 2B or 3B seems to be the area (or SS and move Javy to 2B). They will miss Miggy, not for production at this point - but as a 'been there, done that' influence and mentor. All the more reason for adding a 'Professional' bat (or two).

Hmm, just throwing a dart out there. Maybe someone like Noah Syndergaard might be a player who may feel we could help him get better - this is what the Tigers like to advocate. Maybe similar to Carson Kelly, where for not only this year but next year 'could' be a part of a deal. He was also pretty close to MLorenzen while they were both playing for Los Angeles. Again, just a dart throw, lol. Of course there has been other players from teams recently DFA, released, etc.

Met Dave Bergman several times, had several more than casual conversations with him as well. IMHO, he was always professional. Also, FWIW, Sparky liked him a lot and he played for him for quite a while - we all know that/his old so said quote (perhaps myth, lol) 'My way or the highway' so it seems 'Bergy' was good to be around from that perspective as well.

Yes, It seems JJung gets a bit overlooked with CKeith on board - but he is looking more & more legit as an offensive player. His defense seems to be limited, but if he can play decent at 2B - that might be all it takes 'if' he is a plus offensive player.

Holy Toledo Box score 'Bat' man ! 😄 https://www.milb.com/gameday/mud-hens-vs-bats/2023/08/22/723344/final/box

He was fairly well touted for a good minute at an early age in a loaded LAD system. If he can improve his D a bit - he was always seen as an offensive prospect with some pop and decent speed, BTW 22 at AAA is still young!

Thank you for posting. Yes, Mr. Price deserves his own thread. Long time fan of listening to him and Dan Dickerson the radio. He stood in the game as long as he could. He told you how things were, esp later on. I also had the honor of meeting him at one of the Old Tiger Stadium weekend Fantasy Camps. I remember it will, him tossing some Ps to me as I swung away for some hitting practice. Then Ernie came by to sit in the dugout and talk to several participants. Northrup, Horton and others participated as well. "Late Movement" and "He put a severe buggy whip on that one" are the sayings I most remember. Peace and onto 'The Field of Dreams' Jimbo 😇

I believe he is playing tonight for Toledo in game 1 of the DH.

Sounds sensible. Some simple speculation: I posted late last week on one of the threads here that the NYM could throw a 'monkey wrench' into all of this by making Max and JV available. It happened, though still... I would bet that Cincy and Balt did not make offers that SHarris felt good with (ex being what Balt gave up for JFlaherty and Cincy did almost nothing and both were said to be looking at SP). SHarris held his ground (a good thing for any future trade talks). Then JV became available near the end of the deadline and the Tigs had to wait for that to be resolved the afternoon of because the LAD had interest. Then once JV chose Houston then the LAD had to pivot. Maybe previously the jest was worked out with LA with an ERod deal, it was then 'OK'd on by all fronts - but when the actual time came 'something' changed - ERod/family changed their minds, LAD changed what could have been an extension approach, etc. - WHO KNOWS. I also see that the Tigs did do a cash deal with the LAD late yesterday for Inf Eddys Leonard (top 15 prospect out of the LAD system) whom was designated for assignment I believe late last week. He 'possibly' could have been part of the agreed 'package' coming from the LAD. If nothing else it would seem the two sides were talking previously. Again, just some speculation... One thing I do wish to see is a more balanced approach on the player acquisition front. There is a pattern of contact middle Infs who can take a walk it seems: McKinstry, Ibanez (not too many BB here), Maton, JRizzo, NSolak, JCamargo, ZShort, Now Lee and Leonard after yesterday. Even the draft - the second and third picks. Lest not forget to look at C, OF and P as well 😉

Correct. Gone are the days of 3-4 SPs on a team pitching 200+ innings (lucky if 165) or 7-8 position players on a team literally starting 140 or more games each (let alone catchers). Sure there 'may' be an outlier team once in the while for a season. I personally hope that MLB and the union realize a 27-28 man roster is more the route today, but it took a long time to get it to just 26.

I think in the Tigers case it may be more of the latter but some of the former will be needed. I would like/hope to see the current regime come up with a player or two 'this deadline' in a trade that can be potential long term answers for the team. I totally agree with the 'resident' GM on MLB Network last eve when he said (paraphrasing) 'The Tigers have a chance to help themselves this trade deadline' . Of course it is easier said than done. Yet, pitching is always in demand, this is a bit more of a sellers market this year and there is competition for some of our arms (again according to 'some' reports). What may be a monkey wrench is what will the NY Mets do with their Aces'? SHarris needs to hold his ground, but I find it hard to believe someone will not pony up - then again, one club in particular whom we might match well with - Baltimore is VERY tough to work a deal with, but sooner or later (will it be now and even a deal with Detroit) they have to realize they do not need 2-3: 2B's, SS's, etc. They are pretty stacked.

Agreed. It 'may' be a sellers market to an extent. Yet, will teams like Baltimore, Cincy, etc. go for it and break there previously practiced approaches? However, even an extension may not be a bad idea for one of the SPs. With said I hope they do not settle on 'volume' returns as was mentioned earlier here (had enough of that with previous deals/regime) and go more for higher end types - even if we have to put in a prospect/RP or two (not our top prospect guys) - in order to get that type of return.

Yea, Baddoo may need to change his approach and stance. I am not a hitting instructor of course (have coached youth league : ) - but IMHO he may need more of a open/lean back, bat closer to shoulder type angle... He has shown to have something in him (previously and at times), but his barrel rate is just too low. He is the type of player that 'could' do well at/in Comerica Park, but for awhile now that it has not been translating. Hope he figures somethings out - and yes PMeadows will be at the door soon.

Yes, Tampa has some young talent/depth. IMHO a player like Vidal Brujan plus maybe a young arm. Brujan is 'not' going to get a real chance there and just a year+ ago he was a top 100 on a couple sites. Switch hit, versatile, excellent speed, contact ability, good arm & still young. Could bat atop the order (ex at 2B) and lengthen the lineup. Question what is the value there if Tampa is not going to really play him, have others coming up the ranks now and they need P? They also have Greg Jones SS, Carson Williams SS, Willy Vasquez Inf, etc. All seem to be 'potential' starting Inf/versatile pieces. Maybe we have to add a reliever to make a multi player deal... Houston has Pedro Leon Inf/OF as one player (also SP Colton Gordon). Just 'spitballing' names. Of course SHarris may be looking more at lower level players.