Betrayer

Can we go back to the old lottery odds for one year? It's starting to look like we're going to run away with worst record at this pace.

And Saddiq Bey went out as well with a turned ankle.

Ugh. That's going to make this an even more painful season. I guess Ivey gets thrown to the wolves and we see if this Killian uptick can be sustained. Either way, it's going to result in a lot of losses so I guess that's good for the tank crowd.

I don't really trust Livers yet. It's too small of a sample size. But the sample size on Bey is large enough that it's less about my trust in Livers and more about my distrust in Saddiq's outside shot and defense. You've got nothing to lose giving Livers a try with the starters or giving the Stew at PF lineup a try as well. Things aren't working with Bey and Bojan in the starting lineup regardless, so we might as well experiment. As Del eluded to though, both of those guys are just placeholders. We need a far more talented two way wing at some point if we're going to get anywhere. Good thing we'll have a lottery pick and something like 50M in cap space to try to figure that out this offseason.

I think it's more a question of role right now. Bey isn't providing what the starters need, which is outside shooting and wing defense. I think Livers is currently better suited to that role. He's a better shooter, defensive communicator, ball mover, and team defender. He knows his role. We don't need Bey trying to be a 1-on-1 bucket getter next to Cade, Ivey, and Bojan. We need a guy who can shoot the three when open and play better defense. That's Livers over Bey. Conversely, the bench needs another guy who can get to the line and maybe bully the opponents second unit. So Bey could flourish in that role. If he figures out his three ball, then maybe you can bring him back up with the starters, but it could be that he's more of the Corliss Williamson off the bench guy rather than the 3 and D Jae Crowder type people thought he would be. All that said, I just want to see Stew get healthy so we can try out the Stew + Duren (or Bagley for now, I guess) lineup, which would mean neither Livers nor Bey in the starting unit.

I watched it. Haven't missed a game since around 2001... ...and it was just as ugly as the box score would lead you to believe. I'd love to say it was a old school defensive slugfest, but it wasn't. Neither team could shoot for most of the game. They could've built a new arena with all the bricks. It was the perfect opportunity to steal a win on the road trip, but ultimately the Pistons missed open shot after shot to throw it away despite a good offensive game from Bojan. I can't comprehend what's happened to Bey since his rookie year but he needs to figure his shot out. It's nice that he's getting to the line, but if he can't shoot league average from three it doesn't matter alongside his poor defense and lack of athleticism.

Going to be a rough couple of weeks. Road trip No Cade for at least a couple games No Stew Teams might just drop 130 on us every night, especially if we start Bagley next to Bey and Bogey. The three "B"s might be the worst defensive front line in the entire NBA. I would hope they'd at least give Duren a try in order to have some sort of rim protection and rebounding in there with the starters. And/Or maybe leave Bey in his bench role to get him ready for Stew's return and put Livers in there at the 4. He's not a stopper, but he's a far superior team defender than Bey.

The Raptors are just so long and athletic and they play like every possession matters. Second half lineup with some athleticism (Ivey, Hami, Duren) was able to make a run, but it wasn't enough in the end. Ivey took over in the 4th and if anyone could hit a shot (Bogey missed a ton of open threes), Pistons could've taken this one. Sad to see Stew get hurt right when they tried him at the PF next to another big man. I really wanted to see that lineup for a few games.

Looks like he's miming an invisible wall.

Would be nice to see Burks suit up against his old team. Looks like Mitchell Robinson is out, so that should help the tiny lineup that Casey keeps rolling out there to start games.

After two years of watching Grant in a Pistons uniform, at no point did I think he was going to take that to the hole and dunk it. I've seen the beginning of that play a hundred times and it had 20 foot jumper written all over it every time in a Pistons uniform. Goes to show you what being on a team that has a chance to win games does for a person - they actually try harder.

Just looks like a Celtics jersey.

Couple of near triple doubles last night with Cade and Ivey both hitting the glass hard. Rough first half, but a killer 3rd quarter changed the game for the good guys. Also good to see Casey starting to stagger the rotations more. Hopefully he keeps it up even when the reserves come back healthy.

If the criteria for spacing the court was 38-40% on 7 attempts per game, no teams would have spacing because there are only so many Klay Thompson's in the league. Defenses still have to respect players with a far lower percentage (for example, Saddiq Bey) and far less attempts (for example, Corey Joseph) - and if they don't respect them, then those guys are getting wide open shots which is also good outcome for that possession. Remember, the point of spacing isn't necessarily to create space in the lane, the point is to find an open look for one of your players because they're too spread apart for the defense to recover and contest after it gets shifted. That open shot could be from the lane, but it could also be from three which is also an acceptable (and sometimes better) result. The Pistons have a problem with rebounding and interior defense. They're 5th worse in defensive rebounding. They're 5th worst in opponents second chance points. They're 3rd worst in points allowed in the paint. They're 5th worst in blocks. Conversely, their offensive rating is actually a little better than last year. My proposal was to try Stew+Duren in the starting lineup to mitigate some of the paint issues. You've proposed starting Bagley+Duren, to which I responded that it would result in both worse offense and worse defense than the Stew+Duren combo. I've yet to hear anything to convince me that Bagley at the 4 is a better idea on either end of the court next to another non-shooting big. But, as I said in the other thread, we're just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic here.

Look, I think we both agree that the team needs to try to get bigger. They're getting killed on the offensive glass, they have the worst defensive rating in the league by a wide margin, they simply can't protect the paint at all, and the guards don't have a vertical threat with the starters. The fact is that we're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but in the interest of seeing 10-15% improvement in this team, I prefer Stew + Duren or Stew + Bagley to the Bagley + Duren combo that you were suggesting. Within my first posts I laid out my reasons on both offense and defense. Yes, one of those reasons was the potential for better spacing on offense, and I stand by that opinion. It's true that he's a 31.5% 3pt shooter for his career and he's being left open 10 games into the season. I can live with that because his form is excellent and the potential is there for him to get to 33% or higher early on this year. At 1 point or more per possession (which he isn't far from), guys will start to come out and contest more of his shots, but these things take time to prove. On the other hand, you're going to have to look long and hard to find anyone who believes Bagley can be an outside shooter anytime soon - so there's zero potential for spacing with him and another big out there. He needs to be close to the basket to do what he does best. On top of that, we don't have the personnel or the coach to run an offense that can deal with three defenders in the lane - no matter what the Warriors are doing with their lineups - so we need to try to develop that potential for spacing. So, at the end of the day, I'll take the potential of Stew creating spacing by mid-season while getting me around 1 pt per possession on his threes in the meantime - along with far superior defense, better shot blocking, and better rebounding which is this team's biggest issue at the moment. Oh, and the bonus of separating Bagley and Duren is that even with Casey's 5-in/5-out lineups I get to keep one of Duren or Bagley on the court at all times for the size and verticality.

He's auditioning for the Casey offense.

Oh, I see it now. We'll have one Center who can post up and score inside, but is absolutely terrible on defense. Then we'll put him next to another Center who's really good at rebounding and rim running. This sounds familiar somehow. Too bad it didn't work last time either with Monroe + Drummond in an even less perimeter oriented NBA. Nobody is saying that Stewart at the 4 is the answer to all this team's problems and they'll suddenly become contenders. What I'm saying is that it's the lesser of evils and that Bagley + Duren is by far the worst option available to us, both defensively and offensively. Either way, I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Combination of Cade being one of our few players that can score in a one-on-one situation (i.e., Casey's offense) and the backup (Killian) being a complete train wreck that doesn't belong in the NBA.

Did I miss the part where we moved on from Casey as our head coach?

That's some crazy stuff. I guess you just accept the injury risk if you can get a guy that can do that.

Would be fun to compare that to what it looks like a few months from now. The first couple weeks of the NBA season are always wonky as heck. Not that I expect it to change much for Casey's young Pistons, but some of those other teams will shift a lot over the next 20 games.

Just don't scroll down and read the Twitter comments. This world is full of terrible, terrible people. It's sad.

Let's not compare Casey's offense to the Warriors. Not only do they have the best shooter of all time, they have constant movement, screening, and passing - both on ball and off. They shift the defense because it's difficult to handle that kind of movement and Curry demands a double when he's coming off those screens. And then they make it even harder for you with their "Death Lineup" that has Green at Center, not PF, for even more spacing. The reason you see the Pistons reliant on jumpshots and one-on-one moves is because that is Casey's hero-ball offense and it always has been. A few DHOs that don't shift the defense at all, then you have a low shot clock and the guy with the ball calling for a screen to make a desperation play. Playing two Centers is going to make that even worse. The days of "spacing" with a big man standing at the mid-post, another big setting a screen at the elbow, and a guard trying to work the middle is over. That's SVG thinking. On top of that, we don't have the players to finish in that kind of traffic (just ask Cade about the Pacers game). Playing 2 bigs that can't shoot didn't work 5 years ago and it will work even less now. And again, Stew is a better defender, rebounder, offensive rebounder, and shot blocker - the stats back this statement up, it's not just the eye test. Putting him next to Duren makes you a way better defensive and rebounding team than using Bagley in that role. If you were arguing for putting Bagley with Stew in the starting lineup, you'd have a better argument (although I prefer Duren in there), but Duren+Bagley is a mess. Bagley off the bench next to a shooter allows him to do the only thing he's actually good at - get some buckets near the rim mostly from being in the dunker spot on a spread court. And if people don't want to guard Stew, that's fine - it's a wide open shot for a guy who's becoming a better shooter. He's not there yet, but this is a developmental season. Let him shoot those wide open shots for 20 games and let's see where we're at. My guess is he'll shoot over 33% (he's 31.5% for his career) and I'll take 1 point per possession from a developing shooter rather than watching Bagley, Duren, and Cade (or Ivey) trip over each other with three defenders packing the paint.

Yes, of course this team needs more athleticism and length at the forward and center positions. Everyone would love to have someone that can guard Siakam, Mobley or Giannis. But Bagley + Duren doesn't solve that. Bagley is a bad defender, regardless of his length. And when I say bad, I mean REALLY bad. Even with his size issues, Stew is 10x the defender Bagley is. He's also a better rebounder on both ends of the court and a better shot blocker. On top of that, the combo of Bagley and Duren kills your offensive spacing. Cade won't be scoring anything when 2+ guys are waiting to block his shot in the lane on every position. One of those big men has to be able to spread out to the corner three to make space in the lane. Stew projects as that guy over Bagley. I'm 100% with you on bringing more size into the starting lineup, but you have to keep Bagley and Duren separate. They're both Centers and in today's NBA you don't play two Centers who can't shoot together. Weaver's vision is that Stew and Duren are your starting big men, so we need to try that out and let Stew shoot his way into that Grant Williams role (they referenced Al Horford in the presser, but to me that's a bit of a stretch for Stew). Maybe we get lucky in the draft or find a way to use our cap space on a Forward that offers spacing, athleticism, defense, and finishing at the rim...but until then, this is the our best shot at fixing some of the issues we have. 1st Unit: Cade, Ivey, Bogey, Stew, Duren - Good theoretical/eventual shooting from 4 out of 5 of them, better size, better interior defense, better rebounding, better athleticism. 2nd Unit: CoJo (or preferably Cade/Ivey staggered), Burks, Bey, Livers, Bagley - Again, 4 out of 5 of them are projected as decent spacers. The defense of that unit will be terrible, but that's ok because they should be able to score well against other teams second units and that can be their identity.

That duo would cause major spacing issues as we saw when they came off the bench together. The solution is to start Stew + Duren (preferably) or Stew + Bagley. Stew isn't great from 3 yet, but the shot looks good and he's a lot closer to being a spacing threat than any of the other big men on the team. Plus, let's be honest, his only future on a contender is to try to fit into the Grant Williams role, so we might as well start moving him in that direction.