mtutiger

I missed this from earlier... the last point about the EU is a good one...

To this end, would Archie consider it a failure if Putin ended up falling on account of this invasion? Like, in his telling, Putin wouldn't have invaded if Trump were still POTUS (debatable for the reasons I've laid out a number of times, but for arguments sake) and, by extension, would still be firmly in power, acting as a malignant force in the world. Versus now where we are united with allies in a way we haven't before... where Germany (of all countries) is talking about spending 2% of GDP on self defense. The situation that is unfolding in Ukraine is terrible, but I dont know how it could be better handled. And it's a situation where Putin's overreach has changed the dynamics in a way that benefits us more than it hurts us... so much so that there's now at least a nonzero chance his grip ain't solid.

The debate about vigor really doesn't enter into this discussion for me.... this aggression is happening because Putin set it into motion. He's the responsible party. Not everything that happens in the world revolves around Americans and whatever domestic political hobby horses they care about. As far as Earth 2.0 is concerned, as has been mentioned numerous times when it has been brought up (and ignored by some posters), Donald Trump was the President who thought so much about Ukrainian self-determination that he blackmailed Ukraine by withholding funding for Javelins and also the President who seemed on a mission to take out NATO, the only thing sitting between Russia and Eastern Europe. So yeah, color me skeptical that Putin wouldn't have invaded.... if anything he would have invaded because the ground would have been softer for an invasion assuming that the US would have been pulled out of NATO.

And again, I would suggest that you dont understand what you are talking about. Either way, the responsibility for the invasion lies with the invader. Suggestions otherwise make me think you are making excuses or apologias for the invader. And make me question how supportive you are of our country in dealing with the Russians in this moment of aggression.

This is more specifically aimed at Archie than at GOP politicians., but in terms of this war, it's happening because of one man alone: Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. This was a war of choice that did not have to happen. So when someone comes along and, instead of placing blames where it lies, repeatedly blames Joe Biden for this war happening, it starts coming across like an excuse or an apologia for the war criminal who is ultimately responsible for this thing. And it makes me start questioning whether that person wishes this country success in dealing with Russia going forward.

Yep. How "patriotic" of them.

Would you prefer they not cut off Russian oil?

Spot on.

I wonder if actual imports have already dropped some before this action.

You realize that an injunction was issued in regards to the pause on leases and that leases on public lands are still happening, right?

Huh

Equivalent of a 2 Star General...

Apparently Archie missed when they discussed WWII during his social studies class.

To the discussion earlier about negotiating a settlement, thought provoking thread. The amount of bad faith that Russia has built with their invasion will make any settlement thorny, one would imagine.

If you could squint, you could see freedom to associate with EU/NATO being a solid trade in exchange for Crimea.... but in terms of Russia issuing dictates? Hard to see that ever being acceptable to Ukraine given Russian aggression.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: both on the current iteration and former iteration of this board, I've seen countless posts about liberal intolerance and whatnot. Yet I do not think there's a more intolerant view that can be expressed about someone than for someone to say that *their fellow Americans*, whose only crime is to have a different viewpoint, are bigger threats than Russia or China or any other adversaries. And if someone is saying that about you, I don't exactly understand how it's possible to have a good faith exchange of ideas with that person... And on top of all that, the Chinese and Russians and other adversaries cash in on exploiting our divisions. Knowing that, it seems like the most "patriotic" thing wouldn't be to play right into those divisions. But that's just me.

Patriots don't hate their fellow Americans like you do.

This sentiment, the extent to which it exists, is such a coup for our actual enemies.

Let's also look at the realpolitik of the situation: the world finds itself in an economic war with a large, oil producing nation who decided to unilaterally invade a neighboring country. While in the process spooking and alarming allied countries who lie within ~500 miles of the invaded nations borders. That changes the calculus some... not just for us, but also for Iran as well. I'm not saying I agree with it, but the rationale makes sense.

Why would any American pine for the days of being led by a guy who feels that the best course of action in the Russian War is to slap a Chinese decal on an F-22 and bomb Russia?

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