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To ATF’s point, we are a team of kids, one of whose superpowers is the camaraderie and bonhomie of a shared vision to grow the franchise into a winner Bill Lajoie/1970s-80s style: from the inside. The Astros was a team of grizzled grown-ass men, not a few of whom were hired guns. Coulnd’t have been closer to a 180 difference than that. That said, I’d be up for a pitcher of Framber’s talents signing on here. I think there’d have to be some level of market collapse for him to agree to come here, but I’m not opposed on the merits.

Out of reactions, but Like

You might be right. I’m simply making the assumption based on the way we see them interact and the words they have used over the years to describe their working relationship, versus making assumptions based on the notion that everyone always hides their true negative feelings about everyone else.

I sure didn’t celebrate it. The closest I came to accepting it was admitting it was probably better to have Austin Meadows in the outfield in Detroit than have Isaac in rotting away in Avila’s doghouse in Toledo. But even you have to admit it turned out to be one of the worse trades Avila did, since he apparently neglected to do basic due diligence about Austin Meadows before he made the deal.

There is precedent for Baby Doc spending like Papa Doc—he gave 6/140 to Javy Baez on the mere say-so of Al Avila. Plus, it is well-reported that after hiring Harris, Chris invested millions into upgrading organizational infrastructure related to coaching, training, player development, and data science. These are not the actions of an industrialist who’s about to embark upon harvesting the business. On the other hand, perhaps it’s not unreasonable to speculate that one of the reasons Ilitch is investing so much in infrastructure now is so he can cheap out on players later, choosing to cycle through a process of identifying and developing great young talent and then flipping them before having to pay them their due? Becoming more or less a Rays North, sometimes playing baseball instead of golf in October but never able to close the deal in November? This is a baseless speculation that comes out of my own imagination, an exercise in nothing more than covering bases, but it does seem consistent with some folks’ defeatist vision of how they see the Harris regime playing out. In the end, though, I would think even you would have to admit that we can’t come to either conclusion as of today. The only way to know whether Ilitch/Harris will spend on talent at the moment of truth, or cheap out on it, is to live through an entire competitive cycle of build/compete/rebuild, and we are still only in the “build” portion of the current cycle. If we go through this window and learn, I’d guess by 2029 or 2030 or so, that Ilitch and Harris are content to cycle through talent, never pay anyone, never sign anyone or make audacious trades of potential for proof, and be content maybe making the playoffs every once in a while and winning a wild card series every blue moon, then I will sadly come to the same conclusion about Ilitch, Harris, and the Tigers that so many have already come to, and bonus, I will publicly admit right here that you were right all along and I have no idea what the hell I’m talking about. 😉

I flat-out quoted you saying people who debate critiques of Harris "get so sensitive". The "incredibly thin-skinned" comment was directed at me by someone else.

I too thought letting Candelario go was a mistake, although I also wonder how much Baby Doc pushed for that, since he was such a lightning rod in 2022. I feel the same way about Willi, too. They both had a good year or two after they left, but neither were worth squat afterwards. So, neither were going to be long-term solutions at third. Isaac, on the other hand ... that was a pure garbage trade.

I doubt he is, too. My impression is that in-game strategy is planned out by Harris and Hinch in advance, in strokes both broad and specific as needed, and that Hinch is given 100% latitude during actual games to execute it or call audibles as he sees fit.

I don't agree that's our fate, and we've debated this part before, and you should know where I stand on that by now, so we can part friends on this one. Unless you want me to clarify my position again. Just say the word.

And I don't understand why people who defend Harris's executing his well-documented plan are considered sensitive, or otherwise incredibly thin-skinned.

Are you saying it's Harris's fault for making the trades, thus putting the team with a 1% chance of making the playoffs on July 31 in a position where it was almost impossible to win? Or are you saying it's Harris's fault that the team had a 1% chance to make the playoffs on July 31 in the first place and Hinch saved his bacon? I just want to make sure I'm raking Harris for the right reason for endeavoring to screw up 2024.

I would bet that Harris has some input into on-field strategy, and i would further bet that he is doing it by Hinch's choice, rather than against his will.

I seem to remember that the main criticism was that Harris did not have a fallback plan and have a separate trade with another team all ready to go should the agreed-upon trade get torpedoed by the player with less than an hour to go. And of course, because what team wouldn't want to be part of some other team's fallback plan?

Class is dismissed on that one. The final exam answer was that it's wrong.

lol "misleading"

And, at the same time, blame only Harris for the collapse of ‘25.

Not trying to talk you into accepting being deaf in one ear, but both Colbert and Brian Wilson are/were deaf in one ear, and they both use music professionally. You probably know better than anyone that’s why almost everything The Beach Boys recorded was in mono.

Dishonesty is one of my big two irritations. Unfairness is the other. It’s more than just a living for some people. It’s a game, too. Coming up with new and inventive innovations is a reward in itself, even for something like Internet scams.

That’s a good question. I think there are ripple effects that go beyond what that signing in isolation would mean to the business’s bottom line, one of which is how attractive Detroit might look as a destination if we commit to the best pitcher in the game today. There might be a model for that, but I wouldn’t know how to model that myself. Speaking as a man who negotiated for a living, I have a strong feeling it would help us anttract other talent. As for the $40 million a season—I’m certain Harris would leap at the chance to sign Skubal for $40 million a season for four years. Even $50 million a season for four years. I know I would.

This is a lot fairer as a characterization. Not sure I would say the way the ball bounces in October is entirely Harris’s responsibility, any more than we can say he was personally responsible for winning those wild card series. He’s really not either way. But setting us up to have a better chance to go deeper into the playoffs definitely is his task, and he will be judged on the results. Harris’s biggest job now is figuring out whether what we have in house now is enough, or whether we need reinforcements from outside. Practically everyone seems convinced the answer can only be outside help, and we did get back of the bullpen help to help us there. Me, based on his track record so far, I’m willing to trust him going into the season if he believes we are already positioned to go back to the playoffs now, based on what the front office knows about their own players versus the field. If we have a healthy roster that severely underperforms and misses out even with Skubal in the fold, I will stand up and boo with the rest of the crowd.

As long as there is no requirement to spend the money on payroll—how could that effectively be proven, anyway?—at least half of the luxury tax will always be a transfer from the biggest spending teams directly into the pockets of the teams that are purposefully not spending. Who wouldn’t want to buy a business where the competition is compelled to give you money as a reward for not spending to improve your product?

I don't agree at all, and nothing personal, but this might be the worst characterization of his tenure anybody here has made.

I'm not in love with him and he's neither a close friend nor family member, so I have no personal stake in Scott Harris. The idea I'm pushing back on is the conclusion people have already appeared to have drawn that because Harris has not signed or traded for the biggest names in the game by now, that he's never going to do so for whatever reason. And we're not the only ones who say or imply this. Stavenhagen says this, too. Have you heard the annoyed tone he has whenever he mentions Scott Harris's name on his podcast? That strikes me as wholly unprofessional, but only because i am applying the standards of journalists to him. I also aw something along these lines from at least one of the writers at MLBTR as well. They have a professional interest at hand, though, so that may be part of their frustration with him. Harris came in on Day One and laid out a long term vision to fix the franchise he was inheriting. He was never going to be done by now. The rot was so deep, it was always going to take more than three years. We are not at the end of the process. We are more like smack of the middle of it. We haven't even gotten the top prospects onto the team yet and people look like they are already giving up on the playoffs this year, and even more gobsmackingly, are clamoring for the trade of our generational talent for whatever we can get back in return. Not everybody here. Other posters have been very careful to articulate they like him more than not, but to a person, they express also impatience at the lack of big headline moves as of this date. But it's January 1, for crying out loud. We have no idea what this team is going to look like in mid-February, let alone March 26. I can understand grousing on March 26 if we do nothing between now and then. But he has also guided us to two playoff appearances in his first three years which, if anyone would have predicted this in August 2022, they'd have been laughed off the forum. I regard that as proof of concept and has earned him continued leeway to spool out the plan. That's what I'm going to do. But I can also see why you think I look incredibly thin-skinned with my responses as well. I appreciate the feedback.

I would find it interesting if he signs or trades for names, too. I mean, other than Kenley Jansen, right?

Sounds like "no" to me! 😉