2023 Detroit Tigers Spring Training Thread

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, alex said:

Good move as in 'nothing' to lose. Amazing - how every year there are several MLB players that have to go to camp on MiLB contracts (at least to start).

I actually think there 'may' be 1-2 more of these in the next 10 days or so as a few players will be scrambling to get to camp. Perhaps the Tigs may be a 'choice' now.

Yeah, getting someone like Wisler on a minor league deal w/ invite to ST is pretty solid.... wouldn't at all be surprised if he makes the team.

Edited February 13, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Still holding out hope that they have deals in place with a couple of major league free agents and are just waiting until they can put Mize and Skubal on the 60-day to make room.

Jose Iglesias, Robbie Grossman, Travis Demeritte, Justin Upton, Anibal Sanchez, Jose Alvarez, Matt Moore, Daniel Norris, Corey Knebel, and Justin Wilson are all still out there! 😁

 

[casimir]

6 hours ago, mtutiger said:

 

Interesting.  His SO/9 went from 11.0-12.0 for several seasons to 7.2 last season.  Seems like a good reclamation project.

[Tenacious D]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Jose Iglesias, Robbie Grossman, Travis Demeritte, Justin Upton, Anibal Sanchez, Jose Alvarez, Matt Moore, Daniel Norris, Corey Knebel, and Justin Wilson are all still out there! 😁

 

I sense a theme.

[Tenacious D]

Nice to see Boyd and Rogers healthy 

 

[RedRamage]

16 hours ago, chasfh said:

Jose Iglesias, Robbie Grossman, Travis Demeritte, Justin Upton, Anibal Sanchez, Jose Alvarez, Matt Moore, Daniel Norris, Corey Knebel, and Justin Wilson are all still out there! 😁

 

Grossman in particular seems like a Harris fit.  Not sure what if there is any bad blood between Hinch/Tigers and Grossman after the trade though.

[chasfh]

14 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

I sense a theme.

There is, and the theme is, “Who wants Chris Ilitch’s money”?

I think that’s what people are missing in discussion about payroll: good players who have options simply will not come to Detroit this season. We talk about getting a good hitter on a major league contract as if it's something we can just will and make happen. But good players are sentient beings with critical decision-making skills, and most of the time, if a player can choose to go anywhere, he's going to choose somewhere where he can win, or at least somewhere where the organization looks like they have a clue and might start winning soon. In the eyes of players, that's not Detroit. 

Sure, we fans who are deeply embedded in the fortunes of this team can see, or at least envision, the improvements the team has been investing in since Scott Harris came aboard, but those are deep infrastructure-level improvements only devotees of the team are aware of, not the kind of surface-level improvements that people who don't live here or love the team can easily see—and that includes big league players. This is probably why the only major league contracts we could bring aboard are Matthew Boyd and Michael Lorenzen. Those guys didn't really have options. That's also why Detroit couldn't push the payroll to even league average—it's tough to do that when good major leaguers prefer just about anyone else's money over yours.

So what the organization has to focus on this year is showing and proving that we are serious about improvement, AND that improvement is happening. That's what I think is going to make 2023 exciting: if we can make good progress, win 75 or more games (which I think is doable), and get the players we have in-house to publicly sing hallelujahs to the team, THAT’s when we will be able to compete for good big league free agents, perhaps starting as soon as next year. That, to me, would be a successful season.

Edited February 14, 2023 by chasfh

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

There is, and the theme is, “Who wants Chris Ilitch’s money”?

I think that’s what people are missing in discussion about payroll: good players who have options simply will not come to Detroit this season. We talk about getting a good hitter on a major league contract as if it's something we can just will and make happen. But good players are sentient beings with critical decision-making skills, and most of the time, if a player can choose to go anywhere, he's going to choose somewhere where he can win, or at least somewhere where the organization looks like they have a clue and might start winning soon. In the eyes of players, that's not Detroit. 

Sure, we fans who are deeply embedded in the fortunes of this team can see, or at least envision, the improvements the team has been investing in since Scott Harris came aboard, but those are deep infrastructure-level improvements only devotees of the team are aware of, not the kind of surface-level improvements that are easy for people who don't live here or love the team can easily see—and that includes big league players. This is probably why the only major league contracts we could bring aboard are Matthew Boyd and Michael Lorenzen. Those guys didn't really have options. That's also why Detroit couldn't push the payroll to even league average—it's tough to do that when good major leaguers prefer just about anyone else's money over yours.

So what the organization has to focus on this year is showing and proving that we are serious about improvement, AND that improvement is happening. That's what I think is going to make 2023 exciting: if we can make good progress, win 75 or more games (which I think is doable), and get the players we have in-house to publicly sing hallelujahs to the team, THAT’s when we will be able to compete for good big league free agents, perhaps starting as soon as next year. That, to me, would be a successful season.

They were able to pick up players with options the last couple of years.  

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They were able to pick up players with options the last couple of years.  

Not this year.

[mtutiger]

35 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Grossman in particular seems like a Harris fit.  Not sure what if there is any bad blood between Hinch/Tigers and Grossman after the trade though.

I don't see where Grossman fits on this roster at all.... not sure that depth is the right word given that the talent they currently possess is largely either unproven or below average, but to the extent that they have options for particular parts of their roster, outfield is one. And I don't know why they'd bring him in if he's going to take ABs away from younger players (Baddoo, Carpenter, Meadows Jr.), or that he is even a better option at this point.

Edited February 14, 2023 by mtutiger

[RedRamage]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't see where Grossman fits on this roster at all.... not sure that depth is the right word given that the talent they currently possess is largely either unproven or below average, but to the extent that they have options for particular parts of their roster, outfield is one. And I don't know why they'd bring him in if he's going to take ABs away from younger players (Baddoo, Carpenter, Meadows Jr.), or that he is even a better option at this point.

That's a valid point. I wasn't really thinking about fitting on the roster.

[Tiger337]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Not this year.

Why last year and not this year?  Is there no budget?  Or maybe Harris doesn't want to waste long-term money on a lost season?  

[RedRamage]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

Why last year and not this year?  Is there no budget?  Or maybe Harris doesn't want to waste long-term money on a lost season?  

Part of the problem is probably that the Tigers were on the upswing in 2021...  .521 wpct after the All Star Break.

[chasfh]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

Why last year and not this year?  Is there no budget?  Or maybe Harris doesn't want to waste long-term money on a lost season?  

Last year because it looked like the Tigers were about to take a big step forward toward contention, and not this year because they'd just taken a huge step backwards and upended their front office as a result. To people not deeply embedded with the fortunes of the franchise as fans or beat media, it all looks like chaos. Players have a precious short amount of time to play and win. Why waste it with a team that looks like they're on the treadmill to oblivion?

I agree that Harris also did not want to spend big long-term money on players when we're not in a position to win now, but players who deserve big money want to go to teams that look like they are on the way up, not teams that look like they're floundering.

 

[mtutiger]

29 minutes ago, chasfh said:

There is, and the theme is, “Who wants Chris Ilitch’s money”?

I think that’s what people are missing in discussion about payroll: good players who have options simply will not come to Detroit this season. We talk about getting a good hitter on a major league contract as if it's something we can just will and make happen. But good players are sentient beings with critical decision-making skills, and most of the time, if a player can choose to go anywhere, he's going to choose somewhere where he can win, or at least somewhere where the organization looks like they have a clue and might start winning soon. In the eyes of players, that's not Detroit. 

Sure, we fans who are deeply embedded in the fortunes of this team can see, or at least envision, the improvements the team has been investing in since Scott Harris came aboard, but those are deep infrastructure-level improvements only devotees of the team are aware of, not the kind of surface-level improvements that people who don't live here or love the team can easily see—and that includes big league players. This is probably why the only major league contracts we could bring aboard are Matthew Boyd and Michael Lorenzen. Those guys didn't really have options. That's also why Detroit couldn't push the payroll to even league average—it's tough to do that when good major leaguers prefer just about anyone else's money over yours.

We also need to be realistic about what money can actually achieve on a year-to-year basis. The Texas Rangers are a good example.... they handed out over $500 million in contracts last offseason and, as a result, went from 60 to 68 wins. They handed out even more money this offseason.... maybe it works in the end, but there's a decent chance that it doesn't (there's at least three of those contracts that are likely to age horribly). Particularly if they don't have a good hit rate on their younger core players coming up through the system.

But even in their case, spending all the money that they are spending, it comes down to players in their system, that will make or break their chances. No different than the Tigers.... had the Tigers signed a pu pu platter of Jean Segura, Brandon Drury and Wil Myers, it really wouldn't change the fact that they need better production from people already on the roster and in their system to make that next step.

36 minutes ago, chasfh said:

So what the organization has to focus on this year is showing and proving that we are serious about improvement, AND that improvement is happening. That's what I think is going to make 2023 exciting: if we can make good progress, win 75 or more games (which I think is doable), and get the players we have in-house to publicly sing hallelujahs to the team, THAT’s when we will be able to compete for good big league free agents, perhaps starting as soon as next year. That, to me, would be a successful season.

I look at their current situation as the inverse of last offseason.... people saw the overachievement of the 2021 team and made assumptions about what was possible in 2022. This offseason, people look at the underachievement of the 2022 team and are making assumptions about what is possible in 2023.

However 2023 plays out, I am not going to assume that we should just "copy-paste" each players stats from 2022 and presume they will all produce the same way. Feels like we see a lot of people do that with this team.

[mtutiger]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I agree that Harris also did not want to spend big long-term money on players when we're not in a position to win now, but players who deserve big money want to go to teams that look like they are on the way up, not teams that look like they're floundering.

In some cases spending big may not have been smart as well. 

Carlos Correa, every Tiger fans favorite free agent is a good example, especially after the revelations about injury concerns.... the deal he ultimately signed (6 years, heavily incentive laden) makes sense for a team that looks like a legitimate competitor in 2023-2024, but for a team like the Tigers where a lot of luck would be required to compete within the next two years, it doesn't seem wise to sign a guy with injury concerns and who could potentially see a decline in production during the years where the team may be competitive in the future

Edited February 14, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

Just now, mtutiger said:

In some cases spending big may not have been smart as well. 

Carlos Correa, every Tiger fans favorite free agent is a good example, especially after the revelations about injury concerns.... the deal he ultimately signed (6 years, heavily incentive laden beyond) makes sense for a team that looks like a legitimate competitor in 2023-2024, but for a team like the Tigers where a lot of luck would be required to compete within the next two years, it doesn't seem wise to sign a guy with injury concerns and who could potentially see a decline in production during the years where the team may be competitive in the future because of those concerns.

Plus even that guy with injury concerns was never coming to the Tigers, anyway. The disinterest is certainly mutual.

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Last year because it looked like the Tigers were about to take a big step forward toward contention, and not this year because they'd just taken a huge step backwards and upended their front office as a result. To people not deeply embedded with the fortunes of the franchise as fans or beat media, it all looks like chaos. Players have a precious short amount of time to play and win. Why waste it with a team that looks like they're on the treadmill to oblivion?

 

 

Maybe, but I am slightly more optimistic about the future of the franchise now than I was last year at this time.  2021 was good luck.  2022 was bad luck mostly due to injuries.  I am cautiously optimistic that Harris will do better than Avila and I am encouraged by apparent steps forward by a number of prospects last year.  Maybe players and agents see it differently, but I think they could sign players if they wanted to spend.   

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Plus even that guy with injury concerns was never coming to the Tigers, anyway. The disinterest is certainly mutual.

Totally, he was never coming here.... just speaking more to the general bent of "they need to spend more!!!" without thinking about things like injuries or how that can impact a team's thinking long term.

Another example from last offseason would be Trevor Story... as rough a year as Javy had last year, could you imagine where they'd be if they would have signed him and entered this year with him on the rack? Concerns about his elbow no doubt was part of the calculus for teams in the market for a SS.

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Maybe, but I am slightly more optimistic about the future of the franchise now than I was last year at this time.  2021 was good luck.  2022 was bad luck mostly due to injuries.  I am cautiously optimistic that Harris will do better than Avila and I am encouraged by apparent steps forward by a number of prospects last year.  Maybe players and agents see it differently, but I think they could sign players if they wanted to spend.   

So am I. I am far, far more optimistic about the franchise than I was last year. I think they can sign players if they want to spend and they look like things are looking up. Hopefully next winter.

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Totally, he was never coming here.... just speaking more to the general bent of "they need to spend more!!!" without thinking about things like injuries or how that can impact a team's thinking long term.

Another example from last offseason would be Trevor Story... as rough a year as Javy had last year, could you imagine where they'd be if they would have signed him and entered this year with him on the rack? Concerns about his elbow no doubt was part of the calculus for teams in the market for a SS.

I admit I wanted Trevor Story over Javy. I thought he was a good bounce-back candidate to return to a consistent 120+ OPS+ level for the next several years, and he'd had zero injury issues before that. It was bad luck, and could not have happened to a nicer team.

[RatkoVarda]

They are probably going to go North with 31-year old Schoop and 33-year old Hernandez starting in the infield, and 40-year old Miggy clogging the bench - 3 guys who have no place on the 2024 team - and hoping the 30-year old Baez can turn it around and the 30-year old Haase does not turn into a pumpkin. Maybe 30-year old Andy Ibanez or 31-year old Andrew Knapp can provide some leadership and make the team as well! Thank goodness we don't have expensive free agents blocking prospects.

Harris inherited a flaming train wreck, then pulled out a lawn chair, sat down, shook his head and said "this is really bad and it will get fixed in a few years"

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

They are probably going to go North with 31-year old Schoop and 33-year old Hernandez starting in the infield, and 40-year old Miggy clogging the bench - 3 guys who have no place on the 2024 team - and hoping the 30-year old Baez can turn it around and the 30-year old Haase does not turn into a pumpkin. Maybe 30-year old Andy Ibanez or 31-year old Andrew Knapp can provide some leadership and make the team as well! Thank goodness we don't have expensive free agents blocking prospects.

Harris inherited a flaming train wreck, then pulled out a lawn chair, sat down, shook his head and said "this is really bad and it will get fixed in a few years"

I don't see Hernandez, Ibanez or Knapp as guarantees to make the 2023 roster out of camp.

[buddha]

pecota has us at 63 wins....but not last place!

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Why last year and not this year?  Is there no budget?  Or maybe Harris doesn't want to waste long-term money on a lost season?  

Budget has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

It's the specific issue that chas was pointing out... Budget doesn't matter this year. Instead, it is free agent perceptions of the team. They look at this team and think "they suck" and they look for a better opportunity to win games. Nothing more to it than that.