Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Motor City Sonics]

Can we all just keep in mind, this started at a Traffic Stop.   I don't believe this young man had any warrants or was accused of anything other than "Reckless Driving", and lets be honest "Reckless Driving" can be as little as not using a turn signal. 

Why were so many cops so aggressive with someone over a traffic stop?     Seem normal to you?   

[Motor City Sonics]

And if you saw the video you see the tone set by the cops right away.    No wonder he ran.  Dude was scared and now we know that fear was justified.   

 

After the beating the cops talking with each other - coming up with their story.    Sickening.  

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Weird how after Furgeson we were told that the racial makeup of the police needed to reflect the racial makeup of the city, something about community policing. Now that everyone involved is black it's still white racism. 

More white people are killed by police so yeah it does happen. 

This is like saying American slavery wasn’t built and sustained on white racism because African men handed over people from enemy tribes to ships run exclusively by white slavers, and yeah, there were white slaves in 1630, so there.

Edited January 29, 2023 by chasfh

[Motown Bombers]

16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

This is like saying American slavery wasn’t built and sustained on white racism because African men handed over people from enemy tribes to ships run exclusively by white slavers, and yeah, there were white slaves in 1630, so there.

Ok.

[chasfh]

As if.

What is almost certain to happen is that Congress will completely ignore such calls, since Hunter Biden’s laptop will be considered far too important to divert resources from. But it will be addressed by their state media, and it could take the form of any number of: killings of police by immigrants is a far larger problem; more white people are killed by police than black people so there is no racism problem; these thugs, particularly this Tyree character, are bringing it on themselves by being thugs; there are thousands of police departments where this doesn’t happen, so the whole thing is overblown, and commie Democrats and their lackey commie media hate police which is why they talk about stuff like this instead of open borders and Brandon’s failing economy.

In other words: fire up the gaslight, there’s work to do!

 

[Motown Bombers]

A quick look at the Memphis police website, and their chief is black. 5 of the 8 members of leadership on the department are black. My math shows that's 62%. A Wikipedia check of Memphis shows it's 64% black. With all the black leadership in the police department and black officers, who are the white slavers running the department? 

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

True, but Bombers point still stands, at least for those folks that are convinced police purposely hunt and kill black people. 
 

There are legitimate reasons for that disparity too.  And note I’m not saying we should disregard that disparity and shouldn’t work to rectify those causes ( poor areas have more crime, thus more policing for instance).

I don't think police intend to to hunt and kill Blacks, but there is racial profiling.  I believe Blacks are more more likely to be pulled over for minor traffic violations and are dealt with more aggressively due to profiling.  

As Gehringer suggested the other day, I do agree that we should trying to do more to rectify things like poverty and poor education rather than policing poor areas into submission.  

 

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

A quick look at the Memphis police website, and their chief is black. 5 of the 8 members of leadership on the department are black. My math shows that's 62%. A Wikipedia check of Memphis shows it's 64% black. With all the black leadership in the police department and black officers, who are the white slavers running the department? 

They work for a white-dominated system in a red hat state. They got to where they were because they play ball. They’re not going to break ranks.

I would be interested in seeing you reply to Tiger337’s stats post.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

They work for a white-dominated system in a red hat state. They got to where they were because they play ball. They’re not going to break ranks.

I would be interested in seeing you reply to Tiger337’s stats post.

I really don't have anything to disagree with in his post. I would be interested in your thoughts on why 95% of people shot and killed by police are men despite being 50% of the population. If history is any indication, I doubt I'll hear any actually thoughts.

I guess I can surmise that the governor of Tennessee is the white slaver in your analogy. The police force in Memphis appears to be black dominated so the talk about a racial makeup of the community they serve never mattered. 

[chasfh]

22 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I really don't have anything to disagree with in his post. I would be interested in your thoughts on why 95% of people shot and killed by police are men despite being 50% of the population. If history is any indication, I doubt I'll hear any actually thoughts.

I guess I can surmise that the governor of Tennessee is the white slaver in your analogy. The police force in Memphis appears to be black dominated so the talk about a racial makeup of the community they serve never mattered. 

What do you think of Tiger337’s data post? Seems to undercut one of your core arguments.

[pfife]

bombers thread

[ewsieg]

14 hours ago, chasfh said:

They work for a white-dominated system in a red hat state. They got to where they were because they play ball. They’re not going to break ranks.

I would be interested in seeing you reply to Tiger337’s stats post.

Two things can be correct, even if one of them doesn't necessarily fit your narrative.  Bomber already said he didn't disagree with that post, what else is there to say?  

[ewsieg]

16 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think police intend to to hunt and kill Blacks, but there is racial profiling.  I believe Blacks are more more likely to be pulled over for minor traffic violations and are dealt with more aggressively due to profiling.  

I don't dispute that there is some racial profiling going on, but I also think stuff gets lumped into profiling too often as well.  Communities also police differently, so what a black person might consider a minor traffic violation (5-10 over, rolling stop, u-turn) that they do all the time in Detroit in front of cops, doesn't mean they won't get pulled over for it in the Grosse Pointes.   In a specific example like I note here, more policing for minor traffic violations (not necessarily more tickets) could be a good thing.

I wish I could remember where, but I remember an article about a minority area that had a lot of pedestrian deaths at a particular crossing.  The community pushed for more enforcement in the area, over a few years there were an obvious decrease in death/injury.  But others felt this was a racial crackdown and eventually got the additional enforcement removed, deaths and injuries returned.  

More consistent policing would be more beneficial, but how do you do that with vast different issues they need to deal with?

16 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

As Gehringer suggested the other day, I do agree that we should trying to do more to rectify things like poverty and poor education rather than policing poor areas into submission.  

The correct move, IMO, would be trying to rectify those other areas WHILE keeping heavy policing in place.  So often with Detroit you hear folks argue the chicken and the egg, mostly with safety and schools.  You can't have good schools if the community isn't safe vs a focus on schools will lead to less safety being needed.  IDK, maybe try both at the same time and see if that helps? 

[oblong]

I will agree that there's funny business that can occur with the numbers and what they mean.  There's some groups that protest Dearborn because of what they perceive as unfair arrest/charging disparities among racial groups.  The reason for that is Dearborn and shopping/retail districts on the east and west end.  We border Detroit, Inkster, Dearborn Heights.  Most of these arrests/charges occur because of things like shoplifting or outstanding warrants when pulled over.  I mean... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you go to Fairlane now there's a certain makeup of demographics and natural forces that say you will always have X number of shoplifting incidents then that's what the numbers will look like.  You can't look at the makeup of a city and assume that the crime numbers will just reflect that makeup when so many people visit the city because of the mall and other shopping options.  As Chris Rock said.... Fairlane is the mall "White people used to go to".  When we go to the mall we go to Twelve Oaks 30 minutes away.  It's not because of who is at Fairlane, but rather what is at Fairlane, in terms of stores.  There's nothing there for us.

 

 

[mtutiger]

Lee's point still stands in that the per capita numbers suggest that violence against blacks by police happens at a higher proportionality than it does with other groups.

We can debate the reasons for that and whether the reasons are nefarious or less so, but just looking at absolute numbers misses a lot of context...

Looking at absolute numbers alone is as accurate as saying that because Spencer Torkelson had more hits than Ozzie Albies in 2022, that means he was a better hitter. When factoring in proportionality of games played, among of ABs, etc., it's erroneous to say that.

Edited January 30, 2023 by mtutiger

[ewsieg]

8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Lee's point still stands in that the per capita numbers suggest that violence against blacks by police happens at a higher proportionality than it does with other groups.

We can debate the reasons for that and whether the reasons are nefarious or less so, but just looking at absolute numbers misses a lot of context...

Looking at absolute numbers alone is as accurate as saying that because Spencer Torkelson had more hits than Ozzie Albies in 2022, that means he was a better hitter. When factoring in proportionality of games played, among of ABs, etc., it's erroneous to say that.

So far I haven't seen anyone dispute Lee's point.  But if Lee's point is the only number we should use, than it's clear racial profiling is being done by Asians against the rest of us, albeit Black people at a higher rate than myself (white).  

[mtutiger]

21 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

So far I haven't seen anyone dispute Lee's point.  

Perhaps, but I've seen people mostly elide it (ie. True, but Bombers point still stands... and yes, I saw the last paragraph and still think it was being elided)  and introducing red herrings/whataboutism points into the discussion to avoid having to directly deal with Lee's point (ie. I would be interested in your thoughts on why 95% of people shot and killed by police are men despite being 50% of the population.)

Lee's point is important because it provides statistical context to the absolute numbers. At accounting for 2.5 times the rate of whites per capita in police deaths, that is a really dramatic difference, so much so that I don't think it can all be accounted for just in the difference in communities or policing. To be clear, I don't know all the reasons for the disparity in rates between whites and blacks in this metric, and they may not all be nefarious, I just think more context is needed than just pointing to the absolute numbers and saying that's the be all end all.

21 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

But if Lee's point is the only number we should use, than it's clear racial profiling is being done by Asians against the rest of us, albeit Black people at a higher rate than myself (white).  

To be clear, I don't know all the reasons for the disparity in rates between others and whites in this metric, and they may not all be nefarious, I just think more context is needed than just pointing to the absolute numbers and saying that's the be all end all.

Edited January 30, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Two things can be correct, even if one of them doesn't necessarily fit your narrative.  Bomber already said he didn't disagree with that post, what else is there to say?  

You’re right. He agrees with the numbers, which undermines his core argument, and that’s good enough.

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

PTo be clear, I don't know all the reasons for the disparity in rates between whites and blacks in this metric, and they may not all be nefarious, I just think more context is needed than just pointing to the absolute numbers and saying that's the be all end all.

My only point with the absolute numbers is that it's happening to all races, which if all color and creed of Police are trained to systematically hunt and kill Black people, they are performing very poorly.  Add in the fact that urban areas are policed more, means more interaction is likely.  More interaction and it makes sense more bad outcomes can occur.  That alone does not mean it's racist to police urban areas more, as often it's the minorities in that area that are calling for more safety.  

I absolutely agree that we should be looking at policing in an entirely different light.   But on the other side, I don't see the benefit of painting everything as racist, which is part of the reason why black man are the most likely to run from cops, vastly increasing the odds of a violent encounter.

 

[ewsieg]

And i'm not sure if it's racist or sexist to say this, but I think the main reason for the disparity in race and sex is obedience.  Women tend to be more obedient than men.  Asians tend to be obedient, thus their minuscule numbers.  When every media source and one major political party tells every black man that getting pulled over for 5 over puts you in a 50/50 situation, idk, maybe that has something to do with it.  And point taken that real police issues that have occurred over the years, such as planting evidence, roughing up suspects, and other tactics that have been done, in higher numbers in urban areas, eroded credibility too.  In no way am I trying to discredit those legitimate facts, just like the statistical facts Lee posted.

[mtutiger]

15 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

My only point with the absolute numbers is that it's happening to all races, which if all color and creed of Police are trained to systematically hunt and kill Black people, they are performing very poorly. Add in the fact that urban areas are policed more, means more interaction is likely.  More interaction and it makes sense more bad outcomes can occur.  That alone does not mean it's racist to police urban areas more, as often it's the minorities in that area that are calling for more safety.

Yes, police engage and kill people of all races. I'm pretty sure no one disputes that. But when it happens to one group of people 2.5 times more per capita than the group that comprises the majority of Americans, it's not exactly a huge shock that people are going to ask questions about what factors may cause that and you don't have to be someone on social media who engages in overheated rhetoric to acknowledge that disparity or wonder about what factors cause that. Or even that there may be systemic factors at play.

Regarding the bolded, as mentioned in the part of my post that you didn't quote, at a disparity of 2.5 times, I'm not of the view that disparity can be entirely explained by geography.

15 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I absolutely agree that we should be looking at policing in an entirely different light.   But on the other side, I don't see the benefit of painting everything as racist, which is part of the reason why black man are the most likely to run from cops, vastly increasing the odds of a violent encounter.

As someone who isn't black, I'm not going to pretend to understand the variety of factors that may cause someone who is black to run from the cops. Or simply chalk it all up to "people painting everything as racist"

From the few interactions I've had in my life with people from that community on this subject, it seems to have a lot more to do with the learned experience over the generations of having interactions with law enforcement than simply being told what to do by social media influencers.

Edited January 30, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

The other thing I would say as this: the loudest voices that are being referenced in this thread  aren't necessarily reflective of African Americans views on law enforcement either. Polling continually show that AAs are generally supportive and desire law enforcement in their communities. 

But to that end, one can desire and understand the need for law enforcement while acknowledging the issues that exist within the law enforcement community, which AAs do per polling as well. For some reason, instead of looking at this nuance, we have two extreme sides who either go to the mattresses defending or obfuscating arguments that maybe the law enforcement profession needs some self-reflection or go out and say things along the line (at least in the most extreme arguments anyway) of police are there to go out and  systematically kill black people.

Neither of these views is reflective of where the majority of AAs (or even Americans more generally) fall, but those are the contours that are used to discuss these issues. And that's a choice we all make.... we don't have to discuss along those lines or engage on those extremes.

Edited January 30, 2023 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

2.5 times more per capita than the group that comprises the majority of Americans,

I think what would be instructive would be to look at the percentage of the black population that lives in economically depressed urban areas as compared to whites. That is going to explain part of that 2.5 disparity. I would say if whatever residual percentage difference remaining after normalizing for the prevalence of urban poverty, that can be more clearly assigned to endemic/institutional racism factors.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

the loudest voices that are being referenced in this thread  aren't necessarily reflective of African Americans views on law enforcement either. Polling continually show that AAs are generally supportive and desire law enforcement in their communities. 

This is absolutely correct. The urban poor realize that crime prevents economic redevelopment in their areas, prevents appreciation of property valules that allows people in other places to build family economic equity etc.. But they want *better* policing, not just more violently aggressive policing. 

At one time the assumption was that if  police depts better reflected the make-up of the community that would happen organically, but we are finding that police culture becomes an entity all of its own, regardless of who makes up the force so that hope is not necessarily realized in too many places.

Edited January 30, 2023 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think what would be instructive would be to look at the percentage of the black population that lives in economically depressed urban areas as compared to whites. That is going to explain part of that 2.5 disparity. I would say if whatever residual percentage difference remaining after normalizing for the prevalence of urban poverty, that can be more clearly assigned to endemic/institutional racism factors.

Exactly my point. 

Geography matters, but it doesn't explain all of it. There are other factors at play.