Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Perhaps.  I still want to punch the shit out of him though.

why?

[Jim Cowan]

38 minutes ago, buddha said:

why?

Utter contempt for him I suppose.  

[Archie]

I don't get all the hate and negativity toward Rittenhouse. Sure you can say he  shouldn't have been there but the same can be said about the rioters and the people who attacked him.  I've heard people say the two guys would be alive if Rittenhouse stayed home.  Once again they would also be alive had they stayed home.  Was  Rittenhouse looking for trouble?  I don't really think so but the rioters for sure were. 

Rittenhouse did what he had to do to stay alive and safe. Would all the people condemning him not fight back if they were attacked? What if their family was attack.  Would they tell them to take a beating or a bullet because that is the criminals right because they were protesting?  When a person is under attack and their life is in danger they have every right to use any means neccesary to survive.  He did just that.  

 

[Archie]

7 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Any reason yet given for the driver in the Waukesha Christmas Parade?    Was it a drunk driver?   Road Rage?  Or a planned attack?    Just sick.   Can't do normal things anymore.  

Nothing I have seen yet.  They're not saying a lot.  There is a name of a suspect circulating on the internet but don't know where it came from or if its even right.

[pfife]

Yeah but it was clearly demonstrated yesterday that your sources for information are quite suspect, they clearly don't give you all of the information, even though you come here and preach to others to get better sources.

[mtutiger]

35 minutes ago, Archie said:

I don't get all the hate and negativity toward Rittenhouse.

 

Maybe some of us don't get the same dopamine rush off vigilante justice that you do?

[mtutiger]

9 hours ago, chasfh said:

This is going to be even worse than we imagined, isn’t it? 😢

 

Perhaps this is another reason why folks are cynical, Archie.

It'd be one thing if this was just a man looking to clear his name and live his life in quiet peace. Instead, after achieving his innocence, he's gonna position himself to become another David Hogg or Kyle Kashuv.

Maybe some folks don't want to participate in that and give it attention.

Edited November 22, 2021 by mtutiger

[Archie]

17 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Maybe some of us don't get the same dopamine rush off vigilante justice that you do?

If you were out somewhere by yourself or with your family, and attacked by guys with weapons what would you do?  Would defending yourself and family really be considered vigilante justice?  To not do wrong by the people attacking you would you let them beat and possibly kill you?  It sounds like this is what you think Rittenhouse should have done.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Archie

[pfife]

5 minutes ago, Archie said:

If you were out somewhere by yourself or with your family, and attacked by guys with weapons what would you do?  Would defending yourself and family really be considered vigilante justice?  To not do wrong by the people attacking you would you let them beat and possibly kill you?  It sounds like this is what you think Rittenhouse should have done.

except chief MTU was talking about people getting a rush from OTHERS doing that so cool story chief

are you thinking about maybe responding to what people actually posted here sometime chief

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, Archie said:

If you were out somewhere by yourself or with your family, and attacked by guys with weapons what would you do? 

I wouldn't have been in Kenosha that night.

[Archie]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I wouldn't have been in Kenosha that night.

We've already agreed that none of them should have been there but they were and well within their legal right to be there. 

Since you are dodging the question does that mean you wouldn't defend yourself if you're being attacked?

 

[mtutiger]

Just now, Archie said:

We've already agreed that none of them should have been there but they were and well within their legal right to be there. 

Enough said.

Kyle Rittenhouse, like the others, shouldn't have been there. So forgive me if I don't treat him like a hero.

1 minute ago, Archie said:

Since you are dodging the question does that mean you wouldn't defend yourself if you're being attacked?

 

And for the second time, my answer is that I wouldn't have been in Kenosha that night.

What I would or wouldn't do in your hypothetical is not relevant to a discussion about why some view Rittenhouse's actions is a negative light.

[pfife]

18 minutes ago, Archie said:

We've already agreed that none of them should have been there but they were and well within their legal right to be there. 

Since you are dodging the question does that mean you wouldn't defend yourself if you're being attacked?

 

none of this would have happened had the police not shot  a dude 6 times but they always get a free pass

[pfife]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Enough said.

Kyle Rittenhouse, like the others, shouldn't have been there. So forgive me if I don't treat him like a hero.

And for the second time, my answer is that I wouldn't have been in Kenosha that night.

What I would or wouldn't do in your hypothetical is not relevant to a discussion about why some view Rittenhouse's actions is a negative light.

It's always awesome when someone's argument is totally based in a fantasy world that doesn't exist.   This is the same dude that claimed he's "just the facts" but I guess "facts" also mean "a world I made up for convenience of internet argument"

[buddha]

28 minutes ago, Archie said:

We've already agreed that none of them should have been there but they were and well within their legal right to be there. 

Since you are dodging the question does that mean you wouldn't defend yourself if you're being attacked?

 

i dont know what i would do if someone pointed a gun at me, or said they were going to kill me and then started to beat the crap out of me.  im not a gun person, so if im honest with myself, i would likely try to run away.

i think most people would run away because life is not the movies.  i dont say that as a way to say rittenhouse did something wrong, but more as an admission that i dont think i could kill someone.

[Motor City Sonics]

Nobody was getting killed until he crossed state lines and shot people in "Self-defense".    If he was black he'd have gotten life in prison.     

[gehringer_2]

18 minutes ago, buddha said:

i dont think i could kill someone.

yeah - you probably could. Anyone can when the adrenaline turns off 90% of your higher functions. The rational layer is the recent evolutionary graft, when pain and fear take over it all goes out the window and your limbics are no different than a cornered rat's. Why do you think when 20 yr veteran LEO's shoot people with their hand's up it's after a high speed chase or physical battle? It's really hard to teach human beings to suppress fear and maintain rational function when the fight/flight hormones are flooding the bloodstream. it's about as rare as not washing out of navy fighter pilot training and requires constant reinforcement not to be lost again. 

The problem is it's really hard to recognize biological reality without throwing a monkey wrench into a legal system based on holding people responsible to behave rationally. That's goes back to what we talked about earlier and why I am a believer in holding people responsible for that first stupid act that puts them in the position of no longer being physically/mentally able to control themselves anymore. That is the point at which it's fair to demand they be responsible because they still do have control of their 'faculties' 

Edited November 22, 2021 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, buddha said:

i think most people would run away because life is not the movies.  

And to the point on vigilantism earlier, I would add that I'm not sure whether a society where everyone acted as Rittenhouse did in that situation would ultimately be a good thing or a net plus. Especially given how the quality of gun safety courses can vary widely, or if they are even required in a particular jurisdiction.

Again, I don't think there is anything contradictory about believing Rittenhouse didn't necessarily break any laws while also feeling ambivalent or negative about the situation.

[Tigeraholic1]

10 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Can they nail him with Federal charges?  He did cross state lines. 

You can't legally cross state lines now? 

[Motown Bombers]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Perhaps this is another reason why folks are cynical, Archie.

It'd be one thing if this was just a man looking to clear his name and live his life in quiet peace. Instead, after achieving his innocence, he's gonna position himself to become another David Hogg or Kyle Kashuv.

Maybe some folks don't want to participate in that and give it attention.

Speaking of David Hogg, he sure did attract the vitriol from the same people propping up Rittenhouse as a hero. 

That's my main issue with Rittenhouse. The Republicans fight with Big Bird and parade Rittenhouse as a hero. I think within the letter of the law he was justified, but I'm not sure why a political party would want someone as their hero who killed two people that could have been avoided. 

[chasfh]

36 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Nobody was getting killed until he crossed state lines and shot people in "Self-defense".    If he was black he'd have gotten life in prison.     

Do they put corpses in prison? Maybe Wisconsin’s different that way, who knows …

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Do they put corpses in prison? Maybe Wisconsin’s different that way, who knows …

I'm confused how blacks can simultaneously be shot and killed every time they commit a crime and be over incarcerated. I guess this would explain it. 

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Speaking of David Hogg, he sure did attract the vitriol from the same people propping up Rittenhouse as a hero. 

I mean, yeah. Almost like those people are hypocrites?

It doesn't really matter whether it's David Hogg or Kyle Kashuv or Kyle Rittenhouse, it's hard not to be cynical about how political actors use people who either aren't emancipated or are barely so for their own ends.

[Motor City Sonics]

40 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You can't legally cross state lines now? 

Once you cross state lines to COMMIT A CRIME, you can be charged Federally, not just at the State level.    He went there looking for trouble.   

[Archie]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

i dont know what i would do if someone pointed a gun at me, or said they were going to kill me and then started to beat the crap out of me.  im not a gun person, so if im honest with myself, i would likely try to run away.

i think most people would run away because life is not the movies.  i dont say that as a way to say rittenhouse did something wrong, but more as an admission that i dont think i could kill someone.

I agree that running is the best and should always be the first option. Unfortunately its not always a choice.  I've never had my life in danger so I can't say what is like.  I assume all of us would try to do whatever we could and use any possible weapon to fight back.  

The rest is in response to other comments but not Buddhas:

As far as race goes there was a black guy found not guilty the same day or next day as Rittenhouse but in another state.  I don't have his name but I think it was posted in this thread.  The circumstances of his case were similar.  When looking at the facts of the Rittenhouse case, race played no part of it.

Enough with the state lines already.  He has a lot of family in Kenosha including his father.  He didn't cross state lines to commit a crime because he didn't commit one.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Archie