Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Tigerbomb13]

6 minutes ago, Kacie said:

I'm sure it's the masks and the vaccine that will traumatize them.

FWIW, I miss the thread about our departed members.  Not sure if the Mod is able to transfer it over here.  

Sadly, I think all of the stuff from the old site is gone. I miss going back to that stuff. 

[Archie]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Imagine if the teachers were armed and a kid starts shooting in a busy hallway and all the teachers bust out of their classrooms firing. I can't see anything going wrong there.

I beleive part of the problem is that most mass shooting take place in "gun free zones."  Why does that happen?  I think some of it has to do with these shooters are cowards.  If they knew it was a possibility someone would shoot back, some make think twice.

I have mixed feelings on armed teachers. With the right person I would be all for it.  However, I don't think I would want to have some of the teachers I know walking around armed. 

[MichiganCardinal]

55 minutes ago, Archie said:

I beleive part of the problem is that most mass shooting take place in "gun free zones."  Why does that happen?  I think some of it has to do with these shooters are cowards.  If they knew it was a possibility someone would shoot back, some make think twice.

I have mixed feelings on armed teachers. With the right person I would be all for it.  However, I don't think I would want to have some of the teachers I know walking around armed. 

An SRO and a responding officer were both there within five minutes.

[gehringer_2]

17 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think some of it has to do with these shooters are cowards.  If they knew it was a possibility someone would shoot back, some make think twice.

maybe, but most people who think people on site with other guns can help are simply deluding themselves about the situational awareness issue. The initiative is *all* with the perp. He can have emptied his clip and reloaded before a crowd full of armed citizen ever figure out the heII what is going on. That is the tactical reality. It ain't like some Western where the script writer has the Sheriff anticipating the bad guy's every move.

I can grant a higher probability of meeting a gun behind a counter may have some deterrent effect on a property criminal who is in it for the profit, for whom his own weapon is only a means to an end. But not at all to someone who is going out to kill someone else.

Edited December 1, 2021 by gehringer_2

[pfife]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

I beleive part of the problem is that most mass shooting take place in "gun free zones."  Why does that happen?  I think some of it has to do with these shooters are cowards.  If they knew it was a possibility someone would shoot back, some make think twice.

I have mixed feelings on armed teachers. With the right person I would be all for it.  However, I don't think I would want to have some of the teachers I know walking around armed. 

cool original story

[Tigerbomb13]

Evergreen tweet

[MichiganCardinal]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

maybe, but most people who think people on site with other guns can help are simply deluding themselves about the situational awareness issue. The initiative is *all* with the perp. He can have emptied his clip and reloaded before a crowd full of armed citizen ever figure out the heII what is going on. That is the tactical reality. It ain't like some Western where the script writer has the Sheriff anticipating the bad guy's every move.

I can grant a higher probability of meeting a gun behind a counter may have some deterrent effect on a property criminal who is in it for the profit, for whom his own weapon is only a means to an end. But not at all to someone who is going out to kill someone else.

Just for clarity, you quoted @Archie, but it tagged me for some reason.

[oblong]

People that will shoot others to kill have no fear of dying.  They’ve crossed that bridge. More guns is not the answer. Our solution is not to have a bunch of people running around waiting to kill others.  

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Just for clarity, you quoted @Archie, but it tagged me for some reason.

weird. I've quoted the wrong quote on a post often enough, but never quoted the right quote and had it give the wrong attribution.

Edited December 1, 2021 by gehringer_2

[MichiganCardinal]

The media's fascination with the lack of metal detectors at Oxford HS is getting on my nerves. If a kid wants to bring a gun into school, they are going to find a way to do so (if - AND ONLY IF - they have access to a gun in the first place). Could Oxford (and the vast majority of Oakland County schools that do not have them) spend the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost to install metal detectors and then staff them 16+ hours daily for every school day and the following events within the school? Sure, in theory. It would take away from educational funding elsewhere, but it could be done...

To be foiled in an instant by a kid who then shows up 30 minutes late and texts their unsuspecting friend "hey can you let me in the side door I don't want to be marked tardy"...... or who throws their backpack next to that side door..... or who gets it past the metal detector anyway because they know that as the 1000th kid passing through on the 100th day of school, the overwhelmed and exhausted staff standing by the metal detector as 5-10 kids pass through at once isn't going to think twice about it going off and them continuing through (see TSA success rates, see nearly every time the shoplifting alarm goes off in a store)..... or, or, or.... 

The answer is not arming teachers, and the answer is also not turning schools into prisons.

The answer is two-fold. One, go back in that kid's life and find the points where intervention was still possible. Not some "marks of a school shooter" BS that sells in the headlines, but the tangible signs that he was maladaptive, mentally ill, or otherwise not forming appropriate attachments with others. There was a point - maybe yesterday, maybe a month ago, maybe five years ago - where this tragedy was preventable. With the right people involved in this child's life, four lives (including his own, about to spend his life behind bars) would not have ended today.

Second, and objectively easier, take away the fucking guns. If that gun is not accessible to him, four lives are spared today. Easy as that. I'm done being cute about this, I'm done toeing some line for people who are so damned passionate about a grammatically ambiguous sentence written 230 years ago. People do not need to own machines whose sole purpose is to kill other people. Period.

But thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers, see y'all next time after nothing changes.

[Motown Bombers]

I grew up in Detroit and all the schools near me had metal detectors and police on site and school shootings never happened. Sure going to and from school it happened but not in the building or premises like it is happening now.

[MichiganCardinal]

9 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I grew up in Detroit and all the schools near me had metal detectors and police on site and school shootings never happened. Sure going to and from school it happened but not in the building or premises like it is happening now.

There is also empirical evidence indicating that while they are a fancy and expensive visual, metal detectors are largely ineffective at preventing school shootings.

I don't doubt your anecdotal evidence, but I also think those results may be more attributable to who is often attending school in the first place. If the shooter or shooters are not stepping into the school to begin with (presumably they're not if shootings are happening en route to/from the school but not within), they are not the target of this prevention effort.

[Motown Bombers]

 

[gehringer_2]

I don't even know if Americans realize how insane the gun culture here is. It's gotten normalized to them. 

Funny thing was, in  - IDK, maybe ~1970, we had a shooting at Cass Tech. A girl whose guy had jilted her brought a starters pistol to school and tried to shoot him where it hurts. Ended up wounding his thigh. But the thing is, it was *really* considered insane. As in so big an outlier it didn't even really merit consideration. No one thought "measures" had to be taken because the idea it was anything other than some kind of one in a million lightning striking was never entertained by anyone. But I think about that incident now and it make me realize how steeped in this gun culture we have become. It's not just that this America is different from the rest of the world, this America is different from even what is use to be when it comes to guns. I don't get why all these nostalgic-for-the-50s conservatives aren't more nostalgic about maybe the single biggest, most significant life changing shift in the culture, the militarization of ordinary life brought about by this insane love of firearms.

Sure, school buildings are securable. Doesn't mean it isn't insane we need to.

Edited December 1, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

There is also empirical evidence indicating that while they are a fancy and expensive visual, metal detectors are largely ineffective at preventing school shootings.

I don't doubt your anecdotal evidence, but I also think those results may be more attributable to who is often attending school in the first place. If the shooter or shooters are not stepping into the school to begin with (presumably they're not if shootings are happening en route to/from the school but not within), they are not the target of this prevention effort.

I mean, it's not any more anecdotal that this empirical evidence. It's the largest school district in the state and has employed metal detectors district wide for decades and lacks the mass shootings that other schools have had despite being one of the highest crime rate cities in the US. It's probably one of the reason why bank robberies are relatively rare in Detroit as well. 

[Tiger337]

5 hours ago, pfife said:

GOP still nowhere to be found on what they call a "Mental Health" issue.   Actually will be voting against it in the Build Back Better bill.  That they continue to do nothing about this issue is preposterous.

They will never do anything about mental health issues other than funding cuts.  

[pfife]

hold on though what if we just don't have schools be gun free zones anymore that'll work

[pfife]

another idea is to cut taxes that would also help

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, Archie said:

I beleive part of the problem is that most mass shooting take place in "gun free zones."  Why does that happen?  I think some of it has to do with these shooters are cowards.  If they knew it was a possibility someone would shoot back, some make think twice.

I have mixed feelings on armed teachers. With the right person I would be all for it.  However, I don't think I would want to have some of the teachers I know walking around armed. 

They usually shoot up schools because they are bullied at the school or used to be bullied at the school.  They are also familiar with the school.  They aren't going to shoot up a bank because kids bullied them at school.  I don't think most of them are necessarily cowards either.  They do these things because they are nuts, not because they are cowards.  We call them cowards because it feels emasculating to call them cowards.  It's the worst insult a male can use on a male.  

[MichiganCardinal]

By the sounds of the most recent press conference, the number of fatalities may increase. At least one victim is on a ventilator after surgery and others remain in critical condition.

[MichiganCardinal]

The 16yo boy killed was a rising star on the Oxford varsity football team. He had been named to the 1st Team All-Region squad and had been visiting schools, with the possibility of receiving offers.

[Motor City Sonics]

Dad bought the gun 4 days ago.       Did he buy it for the 15 year old?      

[Motor City Sonics]

If dad bought the gun specifically for his 15 year old son, he needs to be charged too and no slap on the wrist.  15 year olds don't need to have handguns.  

[Archie]

7 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

They usually shoot up schools because they are bullied at the school or used to be bullied at the school.  They are also familiar with the school.  They aren't going to shoot up a bank because kids bullied them at school.  I don't think most of them are necessarily cowards either.  They do these things because they are nuts, not because they are cowards.  We call them cowards because it feels emasculating to call them cowards.  It's the worst insult a male can use on a male.  

If you look at history of mass shootings, even outside of the US, most of them take place in gun free zones. Its not just schools but workplaces, concert venues, nightclubs, etc. I refer to them as cowards because they are.  There were police there in 5 minutes but if there was a possibilty someone would return fire immediately it would stop some of these people.  Its would be better to have armed security personnel than arming teachers.

[Archie]

7 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

If dad bought the gun specifically for his 15 year old son, he needs to be charged too and no slap on the wrist.  15 year olds don't 

7 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

They usually shoot up schools because they are bullied at the school or used to be bullied at the school.  They are also familiar with the school.  They aren't going to shoot up a bank because kids bullied them at school.  I don't think most of them are necessarily cowards either.  They do these things because they are nuts, not because they are cowards.  We call them cowards because it feels emasculating to call them cowards.  It's the worst insult a male can use on a male.  

 

I want to add that you are right about bullying.  Its a major problem in schools.  Some of its not reported and a lot of time when it is, nothing is done about it.  This needs to be addressed better and more seriously and harshly in schools.