Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Motor City Sonics]

8 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't even know if Americans realize how insane the gun culture here is. It's gotten normalized to them. 

Funny thing was, in  - IDK, maybe ~1970, we had a shooting at Cass Tech. A girl whose guy had jilted her brought a starters pistol to school and tried to shoot him where it hurts. Ended up wounding his thigh. But the thing is, it was *really* considered insane. As in so big an outlier it didn't even really merit consideration. No one thought "measures" had to be taken because the idea it was anything other than some kind of one in a million lightning striking was never entertained by anyone. But I think about that incident now and it make me realize how steeped in this gun culture we have become. It's not just that this America is different from the rest of the world, this America is different from even what is use to be when it comes to guns. I don't get why all these nostalgic-for-the-50s conservatives aren't more nostalgic about maybe the single biggest, most significant life changing shift in the culture, the militarization of ordinary life brought about by this insane love of firearms.

Sure, school buildings are securable. Doesn't mean it isn't insane we need to.

Wayne LaPierre became leader of the NRA in 1991.  They went from being a collecting interest to being a sales lobby and they used politics and fear to do it.    The vast majority of gun owners wouldn't let their mentally-ill teenager anywhere near an automatic hand gun.  We don't know if this father secured the gun and the kid found a way to get it anyway, or if he just bought it and gave it to him.  If it's the latter, this is on him too and he needs to be charged.  

[mtutiger]

9 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

They will never do anything about mental health issues other than funding cuts.  

Mental health, bullying, metal detectors. Its all part of the playbook, its all about flooding the zone with bullshit that is either too nebulous to be handled through policy or pushing improvements that are, at best, less effective than actually taking on the problem.

I'm saddened by this latest shooting, but I'm wore down. Nothing will change... when Parkland came and went, that became clear.

[Archie]

39 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Wayne LaPierre became leader of the NRA in 1991.  They went from being a collecting interest to being a sales lobby and they used politics and fear to do it.    The vast majority of gun owners wouldn't let their mentally-ill teenager anywhere near an automatic hand gun.  We don't know if this father secured the gun and the kid found a way to get it anyway, or if he just bought it and gave it to him.  If it's the latter, this is on him too and he needs to be charged.  

It was not an automatic hand gun. It was a semi automatic and there's a big difference. 

[casimir]

10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I'm saddened by this latest shooting, but I'm wore down. Nothing will change... when Parkland came and went, that became clear.

Couldn't agree any more with this.

Edited December 1, 2021 by casimir

[pfife]

14 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Mental health, bullying, metal detectors. Its all part of the playbook, its all about flooding the zone with bullshit that is either too nebulous to be handled through policy or pushing improvements that are, at best, less effective than actually taking on the problem.

I'm saddened by this latest shooting, but I'm wore down. Nothing will change... when Parkland came and went, that became clear.

I think it sucks that even though they talk about mental health all the time, they won't do anything about it.    It's something we can all agree on but making things better means things will be better so the GOP is against it

[pfife]

11 minutes ago, Archie said:

It was not an automatic hand gun. It was a semi automatic and there's a big difference. 

no one cares 

[Tiger337]

35 minutes ago, Archie said:

It was not an automatic hand gun. It was a semi automatic and there's a big difference. 

Let's just call them killing machines.  All guns are designed to do one thing - kill.  

[Archie]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Let's just call them killing machines.  All guns are designed to do one thing - kill.  

I think is was just a mistake by the original poster and I felt it needed to be corrected.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Vox: Australia Confiscated 650,000 guns in 1996. Murders, Mass Shootings, and Suicides Plummeted

If you want to do something that solves the problem, do what Australia did, and just mandate a buyback of guns from people. It's too bad our culture cares more about guns than people and our politicians have stones the size of dimes, so it will never get done.

[casimir]

But Australia doesn't have a 2nd amendment.

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Let's just call them killing machines.  All guns are designed to do one thing - kill.  

Well, clearly the solution is more killing machines.

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, Archie said:

If you look at history of mass shootings, even outside of the US, most of them take place in gun free zones. Its not just schools but workplaces, concert venues, nightclubs, etc. I refer to them as cowards because they are.  There were police there in 5 minutes but if there was a possibilty someone would return fire immediately it would stop some of these people.  Its would be better to have armed security personnel than arming teachers.

That's just NRA propaganda.  Mass shooters usually choose their location because they are enraged at people within the location.   States with lax gun laws tend to have more gun homicides per capita than states with strict gun laws.  

Edited December 1, 2021 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Archie said:

There were police there in 5 minutes but if there was a possibilty someone would return fire immediately it would stop some of these people.  Its would be better to have armed security personnel than arming teachers.

I just can't process how this  idiotic concept continues to have traction. You'd consign your society to living their lives in the middle of the Beirut civil war rather than give up your toys? What kind of thinking is that?
 

Edited December 1, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Mr.TaterSalad]

8 minutes ago, casimir said:

But Australia doesn't have a 2nd amendment.

And our second amendment, if interpreted properly, talks about keeping and bearing by a regulated militia. Last I checked, a gun buyback is the regulation part of that. If we had a liberal justice system in this country gun buybacks would work. Sadly the courts have been hijacked to the right. A gun buyback program, in conjunction with broader border enforcement to stop the flow of guns coming into the country, would actually work. Lowering the number of guns available in society, thus decreasing access for people who shouldn't have them, is the best way I feel to solve the problem.

But as we both know, it will neve, ever happen in America. We'd rather watch kids get shot in the face or go to a movie theater or night club or urban community and watch people get murdered over and over again before doing something that would work.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

Every developed country in the world that has gun control has significantly fewer homicides than the US. The states with looser gun control laws have more homicides than the states that do. It isn't because of gun free zones. 

[oblong]

Anyone who has a gun that is later used in a crime should be charged just as harshly as the person who used the gun.

 

Dad got it on Black Friday....woo hoo... 4 days later 3 kids are dead.  Dad should be charged with murder.  If he can't because of the law then it's time to change the law.  Make gun owners responsible for their firearms.  Make them obtain $10,000,000 accidental death to others insurance.

I don't care about your precious rights.  Shove them up your cornhole.

 

[Tigeraholic1]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

I just can't process how this  idiotic concept continues to have traction.
 

Do most High Schools in Michigan have SRO personal on site? My little town in Indiana have 2-3 at each of the 7-8 high schools in town. I only know this from my time on a PK-8 school board and we were improving our security presence so we were gauging schools in the area.

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I just can't process how this  idiotic concept continues to have traction. You'd consign your society to living their lives in the middle of the Beirut civil war rather than give up your toys? What kind of thinking is that?
 

Desperate thinking by people who fear losing their toys.  

[oblong]

10 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

those same jackholes though will whine about the kids needing masks and how harmful it is for them to wear.... totally ignoring this kind of thing.

 

[Motown Bombers]

Everyone wants to compare gun homicides to car deaths so lets do. Everyone who owns a gun needs to be licensed that needs to be renewed every 4 years. The gun needs to be titled and registered with the state and the registration renewed annually. You also need to carry a minimum insurance coverage. Certain guns won't be legal just as certain cars aren't street legal. 

[Tigeraholic1]

16 minutes ago, oblong said:

Anyone who has a gun that is later used in a crime should be charged just as harshly as the person who used the gun.

Agreed, in fact a few years back I sold a handgun via private sale. I obtained a copy of his Drivers License and filled out a bill of sale and we both signed. A year or so later I was contacted by the State Police and was told the gun was used in a crime ( I bought new and registered). They came to my house and made copies of the documents. I found out later the person I sold the gun to had it stolen and never reported it. 

[mtutiger]

28 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I just can't process how this  idiotic concept continues to have traction. You'd consign your society to living their lives in the middle of the Beirut civil war rather than give up your toys? What kind of thinking is that?
 

In terms of arming school teachers, it would also likely push (even more) teachers away from the profession.

Setting aside the illogical nature of it, I can't wrap my head around how the idea of solving the problem by making more people carry weapons is acceptable. Some of us maybe would like to live in a world where carrying a gun everywhere isn't a requirement.

[Archie]

39 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Everyone wants to compare gun homicides to car deaths so lets do. Everyone who owns a gun needs to be licensed that needs to be renewed every 4 years. The gun needs to be titled and registered with the state and the registration renewed annually. You also need to carry a minimum insurance coverage. Certain guns won't be legal just as certain cars aren't street legal. 

A lot of what you are saying is already being done. If you have a carry permit it has to be renewed. When you buy a gun you go through a check that the state keeps on file. Also if you want to purchase a supressor or automatic rifle you have to go through additional checks and a lot of extra fees. The whole process for that can take a couple years.

If there was a gun buy back only law abiding citizens would turn in legal firearms. The country would still be full of illegal guns in the hands of criminals.  I'm sure there would be no problems with that!

We didn't have these mass shooting problems in the 1950s. At that time guns were much more available and easier to obtain.  When I was in high school my friends had rifles in their cars during hunting season.  We didn't have an issue. This is more of a problem with society than a gun problem. Everyone wants to blame the gun when they are overlooking the real problem.  

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, Archie said:

We didn't have these mass shooting problems in the 1950s. At that time guns were much more available

this is a bit of a ret con at best. In term of guns in public places, a carry permit was nearly impossible to get in MI in the 50's. I believe you actually needed individual approval from the county based on a affidavit of need ( e.g  jewel courier, etc )You could buy long guns, but you have always been able to buy long guns but there simply weren't high capacity magazine long guns commonly available on the market to buy.

Edited December 1, 2021 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

The real problem is people get guns and shoot other people.

In places where people can't get guns they don't shoot other people.