Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[gehringer_2]

55 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That seems to me more like it’s meant to satisfy a kind of fascist bloodlust to maximally punish everyone all the time on behalf of the mob than it is a matter of public safety.

completely true. But the race's lizard brain apparently needs these catharses.

[Motor City Sonics]

On 9/4/2024 at 8:28 PM, MichiganCardinal said:

"did his job" - after four people were dead and dozens more injured?

SROs are a terrible addition to any school environment. They make black and brown kids feel isolated in a place they should feel safe, they place more children into the never-ending cycle of criminal justice, and ultimately they just insert more distrust and unease into a place where children should feel safe. News flash, it's not like police departments are putting their best and brightest into the schools. John Oliver did a really good piece on this a few years back.

But they sometimes... plausibly... maybe... mitigate the death toll of the inevitable school shootings, and since we as a society don't want to actually address the plainly obvious root cause of school shootings (i.e., the apparatus involved in every single one of them), we just say all of those consequences are okay for our children to suffer through.

Yes, he did.    You have to take a few things into account.   Was the SRO in the same area as the shooting at the start?.  First of all, it's gonna take a few seconds, at best, to figure out something's wrong.    I don't know the layout of this school, but if it's like most - it's large with a lot of hallways..........where sound echoes around.   It might have sounded like the shots were coming from another area.   And even if the SRO does a fantastic job and in 10 seconds puts and end to it - think of the weapon this CHILD used...........it's made for war and it can do incredible damage in 10 seconds.   That SRO probably did save a lot of lives the other day.  

 

When the plane landed in the Hudson River, they had people in flight simulators try to determine if Sully could have made it to Teterboro airport.  They said yes he could, because in their simulation as soon as the bird strike happened they turned the plane toward Teterboro and made it back.   But what they didn't do is give the realistic time needed to figure out how badly the bird strike damaged the engine and if they could keep flying.    I think Sullenberger and Jeff Skiles made their determination in about 40 seconds, which is actually pretty amazing and that 40 seconds made the difference.   Maybe they could have made it to Teterboro, but that airport is surrounded by buildings and homes,  they couldn't risk it.    Gotta factor in time to asses.   

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

That SRO probably did save a lot of lives the other day.  

That may well be true but you don't want that argument to be misapplied - which it will be. That fact that he ameliorated the situation is not a valid argument that increasing school security is an answer to what happened. That's the same argument as saying more firemen was the answer to people falling asleep in bed with a cigarette and starting their house on fire. We have to prevent the event, not keep responding to it after it's happened/ing

Edited September 7 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

That may well be true but you don't want that argument to be misapplied - which it will be. That fact that he ameliorated the situation is not a valid argument that increasing school security is an answer to what happened. That's the same argument as saying more firemen was the answer to people falling asleep in bed with a cigarette and starting their house on fire. We have to prevent the event, not keep responding to it after it's happened/ing

That kind of thing has to start at home and if more parents are held responsible for enabling their kids to do this, that might happen.    Wish we didn't need SROs, but we do.     

Can't be buddies with your kid all the time.  Sometimes you need to be the wet blanket.    I feel like if your teenage kids don't act like they hate you, at least once in awhile, then you're probably not doing your job.    You have to be the final word.      This guy bought his kid a murder weapon after he was investigated.     That's why we need SROs - parents like that. 

[chasfh]

I don’t like the idea of SROs, which are invariably either uniformed police or uniformed like police, being mandated in all schools because in certain cases it feeds into what is called the school-to-prison pipeline, getting students used to a surveillance officer who is suspicious of or even hostile to them and contributing to a mindset of what they deserve and should expect in life.

I understand that the majority of adults, including parents, want SROs in place for when a school shooter shows up. I would counter with two things: (1) school shootings are a one-in-tens-of-thousands event that will never be experienced by 99+% of the kids in SRO-schools anyway; and (2) fat lot of good SROs did at Parkland and Uvalde, among others I’m sure.

I think getting kids used to living in a police state under which they are constantly surveilled is a gateway drug to getting them to accept a fascist state as the normal state of affairs.

 

 

[oblong]

I agree on that side effect.  It may be unintended but in general this idea that the police are authority figures rather than public servants and getting people used to seeing them everywhere is a dangerous path.  It can be harmless if they are acting as a deterrent, like when you see them at large sporting events. But it’s not a leap to think that can transition to a scenario where they just start questioning your presence and can tell you what to do. 

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

I agree on that side effect.  It may be unintended but in general this idea that the police are authority figures rather than public servants and getting people used to seeing them everywhere is a dangerous path.  It can be harmless if they are acting as a deterrent, like when you see them at large sporting events. But it’s not a leap to think that can transition to a scenario where they just start questioning your presence and can tell you what to do. 

Cops already feel free to tell you what you can and can not do. I was asked for my ID when in public places with cops a few times when I was younger, like in my late teens and twenties, places like on the street outside of bars in college towns and stuff, for no other reason than we were there, and civilians either don't feel confident enough or comfortable enough or even free to say no. I know I didn't. That right there is quasi-police state, isn't it? And that's not necessarily new or even unusual. Hell, the entire Jim Crow south was a fascist one-party police state. So the acceptance and even embracing of the idea of cops (and certain self-appointed civilian deputies) policing public spaces runs deep throughout the history of this country.

 

Edited September 8 by chasfh

[Motor City Sonics]

[ewsieg]

I have no issue with SRO's.  In fact while it was noted it that it isolates Brown and Black kids, I think they can be important specifically for this case. No different then cops walking the beat and getting acquainted with the community, that's a good thing.

That said, they are not a solution for mass shootings at schools.  Bulwark recently had a good conversation on focusing on reactive force to deal with these solutions.  Spend a trillion dollars basically installing TSA style security (and for this arguments sake let's pretend that's really good security) and lock down schools, it just moves the opportunity for these shooters to the school parking lot, drop off/pick up, outside school events.   

[romad1]

I just inserted a brain worm in a discussion with a dude at work.   I told him: "you mark my words they will have mandatory firearms insurance in the next few years because there is no way the insurance industry doesn't want a chunk of that cash and will lobby successfully for it"

Its probably not true but feels like it could be true. 

[gehringer_2]

26 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

No different then cops walking the beat and getting acquainted with the community, that's a good thing.

would that that ever still happens. It's probably one of those things that can't be generalized. If you have a highly militarized outlook PD and you put a hard ass member in a school who never interacts in any other manner that's not a recipe for police-community relations success.

The issue of the militarization of policing is bigger and broader than SROs. It's in large part a direct and I believe inevitable consequence of US gun culture.

Edited September 10 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

I saw a lot of cops around in the two times I went to Mexico City 20 years ago.  Once I got to a corner without a cop, I turned around and went back. 

[ewsieg]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

would that that ever still happens. It's probably one of those things that can't be generalized. If you have a highly militarized outlook PD and you put a hard ass member in a school who never interacts in any other manner that's not a recipe for police-community relations success.

The issue of the militarization of policing is bigger and broader than SROs. It's in large part a direct and I believe inevitable consequence of US gun culture.

Yeah, I'm not looking for a guy that looks like the Rock, in full gear like he's getting ready to take on the entire world by himself with an AR strapped to his chest.  

My daughter's high school has a uniformed county sheriff posted at the school. We do have additional SRO's at both the high school and at least the middle schools.  You'd assume they are a teacher if you saw them in the hall.  

Militarization of the police is an issue, but not sure if that's an issue in regards to SRO's at schools.

[mtutiger]

3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

I have no issue with SRO's.  In fact while it was noted it that it isolates Brown and Black kids, I think they can be important specifically for this case. No different then cops walking the beat and getting acquainted with the community, that's a good thing.

That said, they are not a solution for mass shootings at schools.  Bulwark recently had a good conversation on focusing on reactive force to deal with these solutions.  Spend a trillion dollars basically installing TSA style security (and for this arguments sake let's pretend that's really good security) and lock down schools, it just moves the opportunity for these shooters to the school parking lot, drop off/pick up, outside school events.   

I mostly agree with this.... I don't like it, there's a tradeoff involved, but it's probably more good than harm at this point.

True story, the fact that my son had his first every active shooter drill of his K-12 career on the day of the Georgia shooting (and the fact that he started describing it in a very matter-of-fact way when I got home from work) really shook me in a way that I wasn't expecting. It doesn't really change my positioning a lot on guns in general, but it makes one think about it in a much different perspective when you are sending kids into school.

Edited September 10 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

It’s all fun and games until an SRO snaps at a kid who he thinks is lipping off to him.