Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[casimir]

10 hours ago, Crazy Cat Gentleman said:

good

 

My wife is a teacher.  We know a lot of teachers.  Most teachers get into teaching to teach.  My guess is if they wanted to be in law enforcement rather than education, they'd have gotten into that.

And as for arming teachers, a hearty GTFOH to that.  They're usually busy teaching.  How effective can they be at teaching if they are constantly monitoring the doorway/hallway?

[Motown Bombers]

Some obvious issues with teachers carrying that come to mind is what happens when a 1st grader gets a hold of a gun? These teachers will have to have it holstered on them at all times? It would be useless locked in a desk. What happens with the high school teacher since students know they are carrying guns and a couple 17 year old football players decide to jump the teacher to get a hold of their gun? 

[casimir]

7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Some obvious issues with teachers carrying that come to mind is what happens when a 1st grader gets a hold of a gun? These teachers will have to have it holstered on them at all times? It would be useless locked in a desk. What happens with the high school teacher since students know they are carrying guns and a couple 17 year old football players decide to jump the teacher to get a hold of their gun? 

There are lots of obvious issues with teachers packing.  Well, obvious only if one wants to give it a tiny bit of thought, anyway.

[mtutiger]

22 minutes ago, casimir said:

My wife is a teacher.  We know a lot of teachers.  Most teachers get into teaching to teach.  My guess is if they wanted to be in law enforcement rather than education, they'd have gotten into that.

Again as well, we're talking about (in Texas, that is) a state that thinks so little of public school teachers that it's spent the last Legislative session passing a bill that would limit how history is taught, by penalty of law... 

There's something logically broken about paying teachers below what they should be making and not treating them as professionals and trusting their judgment in the classroom while simultaneously saying that they should all be packing heat. It's ridiculous.... and our Governor, who recently told the TEA to set up a task force to explore why Texas has a teacher shortage, wonders why we have a teacher shortage. 

22 minutes ago, casimir said:

And as for arming teachers, a hearty GTFOH to that.  They're usually busy teaching.  How effective can they be at teaching if they are constantly monitoring the doorway/hallway?

Also, if you're gonna do that, why stop at schools? We just had a grocery store massacre a couple of weeks ago, didn't we? 

Just following the logic being employed, we need to "harden" every public place in America. That's particularly ironic coming from the "we cannot live in fear of COVID" crowd.

Edited June 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[CMRivdogs]

Teachers are already over stressed as it is. Especially at the elementary level. Between just having to manage 20 plus individual personalities 6 plus hours a day. This includes counseling, having to deal with kids who often come from two separate households, angry or even worse disinterested parents. Often with no real breaks during the day.

That's even before having to make any lesson plans or evaluate the progress of the students in the classroom.

This country already has a teacher shortage. It's going to get much worse if you add the extra burden of requiring them to be armed. (And what happens if an armed teacher breaks and decides to go postal?)

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by CMRivdogs

[ewsieg]

Arming teachers is nothing but a lazy response that admits you have no interest with actually fixing the problem at hand.

[Motown Bombers]

25 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Again as well, we're talking about (in Texas, that is) a state that thinks so little of public school teachers that it's spent the last Legislative session passing a bill that would limit how history is taught, by penalty of law... 

There's something logically broken about paying teachers below what they should be making and not treating them as professionals and trusting their judgment in the classroom while simultaneously saying that they should all be packing heat. It's ridiculous.... and our Governor, who recently told the TEA to set up a task force to explore why Texas has a teacher shortage, wonders why we have a teacher shortage. 

Also, if you're gonna do that, why stop at schools? We just had a grocery store massacre a couple of weeks ago, didn't we? 

Just following the logic being employed, we need to "harden" every public place in America. That's particularly ironic coming from the "we cannot live in fear of COVID" crowd.

The grocery store did have an armed guard. He was shot and killed because he was out gunned. He was also a former police officer not trained by the Uvalde Police department so I assume he had more skills and instincts with dealing with an active shooter than your average teacher. 

[Motown Bombers]

The point is, states like Texas want a teacher shortage. It's easier to control an ignorant population. It's why fascist countries always purge the most educated. 

[chasfh]

35 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The point is, states like Texas want a teacher shortage. It's easier to control an ignorant population. It's why fascist countries always purge the most educated. 

More to the point, they want to convert that particular workforce from being teachers to being babysitters.

It doesn’t take much education or certification to impart to kids the kind of indoctrination some states are seeking to implement. That’s one reason the pay is so low: it repels degreed critical thinkers who want to make a difference educationally, while it continues to attract less-skilled people … OK, let’s be real: women … who prefer to work around little children all day. (I’m not being anti-woman here—rather, these states know women will accept lower pay for the same jobs versus men, and I don’t think many Christian states want adult men around little kids all day every day nine months a year.)

It doesn’t take much knowledge to teach first- and second-graders: even high school grads with a 2.4 GPA who went on to obtain a smattering of community or for-profit college credits already know the entire curriculum for first and second grades. At that point it’s all about directing them how to teach the curriculum, which topics to focus on and, as importantly, which topics to avoid.

With rare exceptions, I suppose, classroom adults with that background probably won’t be agitating for the academic freedom to teach critical topics to children. They’ll probably pretty much do what they’re told so they can keep their teaching jobs in order to avoid the deep fryers and the rubber gloves and the cash registers.

Edited June 1, 2022 by chasfh

[oblong]

Do charter and religious schools have a teacher shortage?  Or is that not a problem because all the teachers are women and it's ok that women don't make as much as men because men do real work and are the breadwinners.  If the goal is to make public schools horrible so the only alternative for decent people is taxpayer subsidized religious/charter schools.  Win win for the right wingers.

 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Again as well, we're talking about (in Texas, that is) a state that thinks so little of public school teachers that it's spent the last Legislative session passing a bill that would limit how history is taught, by penalty of law... 

There's something logically broken about paying teachers below what they should be making and not treating them as professionals and trusting their judgment in the classroom while simultaneously saying that they should all be packing heat. It's ridiculous.... and our Governor, who recently told the TEA to set up a task force to explore why Texas has a teacher shortage, wonders why we have a teacher shortage. 

Also, if you're gonna do that, why stop at schools? We just had a grocery store massacre a couple of weeks ago, didn't we? 

Just following the logic being employed, we need to "harden" every public place in America. That's particularly ironic coming from the "we cannot live in fear of COVID" crowd.

I was presented a job opportunity in Fort Worth years ago, but never really considered it as we were too rooted down where we are.  Years later and I don't regret it at all.

You're right about other public places.  Banks still got robbed.  Why have we not heard of arming bank tellers?

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, casimir said:

I was presented a job opportunity in Fort Worth years ago, but never really considered it as we were too rooted down where we are.  Years later and I don't regret it at all.

You're right about other public places.  Banks still got robbed.  Why have we not heard of arming bank tellers?

Company HQ was in Houston during one segment of my working career. The more trips I took there the more sure I was I never wanted to accept a home office assignment. And Houston is hardly the worst Tx has to offer.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said:

Teachers are already over stressed as it is. Especially at the elementary level. Between just having to manage 20 plus individual personalities 6 plus hours a day. This includes counseling, having to deal with kids who often come from two separate households, angry or even worse disinterested parents. Often with no real breaks during the day.

That's even before having to make any lesson plans or evaluate the progress of the students in the classroom.

This country already has a teacher shortage. It's going to get much worse if you add the extra burden of requiring them to be armed. (And what happens if an armed teacher breaks and decides to go postal?)

 

Preach.

My oldest has always wanted to be a teacher.  I think I would like her to consider another career.  It's a profession that just keeps getting shit on.

Then again, look at how the medical field has been treated the last several years, so,... yeah, what to do.

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said:

Teachers are already over stressed as it is. Especially at the elementary level. Between just having to manage 20 plus individual personalities 6 plus hours a day. This includes counseling, having to deal with kids who often come from two separate households, angry or even worse disinterested parents. Often with no real breaks during the day.

That's even before having to make any lesson plans or evaluate the progress of the students in the classroom.

This country already has a teacher shortage. It's going to get much worse if you add the extra burden of requiring them to be armed. (And what happens if an armed teacher breaks and decides to go postal?)

 

It happened down here about 10 years ago. The teacher was fired, went home, came back with a shotgun and killed the principal.

If only he was armed in the classroom, he could have taken out a few students and colleagues first.

[smr-nj]

14 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It doesn’t take much knowledge to teach first- and second-graders: even high school grads with a 2.4 GPA who went on to obtain a smattering of community or for-profit college credits already know the entire curriculum for first and second grades. At that point it’s all about directing them how to teach the curriculum, which topics to focus on and, as importantly, which topics to avoid.

I just feel the need to maybe correct an inaccuracy in this particular paragraph of yours, Chaz. Teaching grades pre-K through third grade, usually entails not only having your degree in primary education, but additional certification to teach the younger grades. Because it’s not just knowing the curriculum at that age, it’s knowing how to teach math skills, how to teach someone how to read,. Believe me, not everyone can do that part of the job. It takes additional skills. The same way that after I got my degree in primary education plus the special certification for pre-K through third grade, it wasn’t until I found myself, about 30 years later, back in the “education game”…(my venture into the financial industries & systems processing careers sidetracked me for decades 😁) where I was now teaching at a special ed school,  and needed to go back to graduate school for 21 credits in teaching special ed students.

Just a shout out to all my education professionals out there… I know you want nothing to do with arming yourselves…. And you know that would compound an already deadly situation.

[casimir]

56 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The point is, states like Texas want a teacher shortage. It's easier to control an ignorant population. It's why fascist countries always purge the most educated. 

This seems a bit far fetched.

[casimir]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It doesn’t take much knowledge to teach first- and second-graders: even high school grads with a 2.4 GPA who went on to obtain a smattering of community or for-profit college credits already know the entire curriculum for first and second grades. At that point it’s all about directing them how to teach the curriculum, which topics to focus on and, as importantly, which topics to avoid.

 

This is ignorant as hell.  You should absolutely be ashamed of yourself.

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

Do charter and religious schools have a teacher shortage?  Or is that not a problem because all the teachers are women and it's ok that women don't make as much as men because men do real work and are the breadwinners.  If the goal is to make public schools horrible so the only alternative for decent people is taxpayer subsidized religious/charter schools.  Win win for the right wingers.

 

Our Lutheran school (k-8) is about 50/50 Men Women teachers. I was on the school board until recently, starting salary out of college $45K. Our longest tendered teacher was at $95K (20 years of service). The highschool starts in the 60k range (60% men teachers).

Some of the ignorants on this board is interesting... 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Again as well, we're talking about (in Texas, that is) a state that thinks so little of public school teachers that it's spent the last Legislative session passing a bill that would limit how history is taught, by penalty of law... 

There's something logically broken about paying teachers below what they should be making and not treating them as professionals and trusting their judgment in the classroom while simultaneously saying that they should all be packing heat. It's ridiculous.... and our Governor, who recently told the TEA to set up a task force to explore why Texas has a teacher shortage, wonders why we have a teacher shortage. 

Also, if you're gonna do that, why stop at schools? We just had a grocery store massacre a couple of weeks ago, didn't we? 

Just following the logic being employed, we need to "harden" every public place in America. That's particularly ironic coming from the "we cannot live in fear of COVID" crowd.

I think what the MAGA and Republican folks would say is whether at a school super market, movie theater, concert, shopping mall, beach, whatever, that we'd all be safer if significantly more people were carrying a gun. More people carrying would make bad guys think twice about committing a crime. In the event a crime did occur, that good guy with a gun could disable the perpetrator or active shooter a lot faster.

We of course know this is all BS and the statistics don't back up the claim. According to FBI data, around 1% of good guys with a gun actually stop a crime in progress. It seems far more likely that a shootout would ensue if 50% of the people or more at a supermarket or movie theater or concert were packing heat. And I don't mean a shootout between the bad guy and the good guys. I mean people misidentifying who the active shoot is and all of a sudden you have people shooting innocent by standards and firing indiscriminately. I think it would turn an already chaotic situation into a worse situation in most instances. Sure, there may be one off situations where the bad guy or active shooting is neutralized quicker, but based on the data and statistics we already have about good guys with guns stopping crimes, I think it is more likely that wouldn't happen.

[Tigeraholic1]

.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Tigeraholic1
I'm a rube.

[Archie]

19 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I think what the MAGA and Republican folks would say is whether at a school super market, movie theater, concert, shopping mall, beach, whatever, that we'd all be safer if significantly more people were carrying a gun. More people carrying would make bad guys think twice about committing a crime. In the event a crime did occur, that good guy with a gun could disable the perpetrator or active shooter a lot faster.

We of course know this is all BS and the statistics don't back up the claim. According to FBI data, around 1% of good guys with a gun actually stop a crime in progress. It seems far more likely that a shootout would ensue if 50% of the people or more at a supermarket or movie theater or concert were packing heat. And I don't mean a shootout between the bad guy and the good guys. I mean people misidentifying who the active shoot is and all of a sudden you have people shooting innocent by standards and firing indiscriminately. I think it would turn an already chaotic situation into a worse situation in most instances. Sure, there may be one off situations where the bad guy or active shooting is neutralized quicker, but based on the data and statistics we already have about good guys with guns stopping crimes, I think it is more likely that wouldn't happen.

Are you aware that almost all of these mass shootings took place in gun free zones?  They broke the law taking a gun into the schools so why will they all of a sudden obey a new law?  

[1776]

5 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Our Lutheran school (k-8) is about 50/50 Men Women teachers. I was on the school board until recently, starting salary out of college $45K. Our longest tendered teacher was at $95K (20 years of service). The highschool starts in the 60k range (60% men teachers).

Some of the ignorants on this board is interesting... 

Our son attended a Protestant parochial school from first grade through 12th grade. The majority of teachers at the school were women but there were several men teaching as well. I can attest without reservation that those teachers weren’t there for the sake of money. 
Prior to the beginning of his starting first grade we had him enrolled in a public school that was rated among the best. With a few weeks left before school would begin we opted to enroll him in the school he attended 12 years. 
During the summer just prior to his starting the eighth grade, we gave him an option of staying where he was (parochial school) or moving to a public school. We went so far as to tour the public school with him and had arranged for a friend of ours who was a teacher at the public school to personally show our son around. We literally left it up to him. He decided to stay put and we never looked back. 
Primary to every family when selecting a school should the ability to choose. Our circumstances were that we could afford the costs of the private education and I know that isn’t possible for a lot of families. And I realize many many families are opposed to anything outside a public education. But again, I would very much like to see families have choices when choosing where their kids go to school without being bound by income restrictions.  

 

[gehringer_2]

People just don't think at all when it comes to subjects (like guns) where the attachment is emotional. OK we are going to arm all the teachers - just how is that going to work? Are wemgoing to leave a gun in every classroom? OK how does that work? Is it locked up? Then how does Ms. McGillicutty get to it before she is dropped by the perp coming in the door? Does she pack it on her person? How tough will be be for a 6'ft 7th grader to take the weapon from 5''3" Ms M when she leans in to talk to the student at the next desk? 

Do we leave all those guns in the building every night? So a gun safe for every room plus the gun plus a security system to harden the building in general because schools were not built to be fortresses but if you make them into munitions depots that's what you need to convert them to?

Well, OK. we don't leave the guns in the building, MsM will have to pack it home and back everyday. OK, well MsM has kids at home so you now you have to buy her a home gun safe because she doesn't want the thing laying around her house, not to mention that again, how hard is it going to be for a couple of bigger JrH boys to over power and take her gone any night she might be leaving late with her hands full of teaching materials?

These are ideas that don't bear even the least scrutiny. And that is because they are not meant to be solutions, they are only needed as argument deflections so people with other stupid ideas aren't forced to confront how stupid they are.

[Motown Bombers]

17 minutes ago, Archie said:

Are you aware that almost all of these mass shootings took place in gun free zones?  They broke the law taking a gun into the schools so why will they all of a sudden obey a new law?  

Are you aware that the Uvalde shooter attempted to purchase a gun at 17 and was thwarted because he legally couldn't purchase one? It wasn't until the day he was legally able to purchase one did he buy one and shoot up a school. 

It's fascinating that every developed country with gun control does not have this issue. Funny how that works. 

[smr-nj]

10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

These are ideas that don't bear even the least scrutiny. And that is because they are not meant to be solutions, they are only needed as argument deflections so people with other stupid ideas aren't forced to confront how stupid they are.

This.