Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[pfife]

7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

You're absolutely correct, the far left portion of the Dem party didn't have enough votes to pass their very left wing bill, BUT AGAIN, they did have enough votes to get a huge bulk of it done.  Instead of incremental change, they choose nada, zip, zilch.  But yes, in a (pfife's) perfect world, the issue is simply they didn't have enough progressive votes to get the bill exactly the way they felt it should be passed.

You're actually comparing what really happened (nothing passed) with what you think would have happened, ie fake world (something could have passed).  I'm going with what happened in this epic showdown.

One thing I distinctly remember about that debate was reporting that Sinema and Manchin weren't the only ones who felt the way they did, they just took the heat for it.

Edited June 16, 2022 by pfife

[ewsieg]

10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The problem for the Dems is that their majority is just two narrow. Sure we can say the left lost the Manchins, but had Biden done enough surgery for Manchin and he loses the AOC  side caucus it's the same discussion just from the opposite other way. It's normal to lose votes on the edges with major legislation, the Dems just don't have the majorities sufficient for 'normal' to apply.

Absolutely true, this points again to the fact that each parties loudest portions have moved into an 'all or nothing' mentality.  This is part of the radicalization of those factions.  And to explain, i'm not comparing the specific views on how radical they are and trying to compare them between the parties, but the loudest and left most of the Dem part, along with the loudest and right most part of the GOP absolutely share this radical idea that if they don't get everything they want, there is no bending.  The only alternative is to point and scream at the other side and claim they are destroying America.

Edited June 16, 2022 by ewsieg

[casimir]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

And between all this and talk of being required to be armed in the classroom, there’s a good chance all this is going to cost those states a lot of good teachers, and then who’s left to take those jobs?

Just find some high school grads that had a 2.4 GPA.  Right?

[chasfh]

54 minutes ago, casimir said:

Just find some high school grads that had a 2.4 GPA.  Right?

If certain red states continue along the path of controlling teaching tactics down to the minute classroom level, with mandates to teach certain ideological precepts and prohibitions on certain other ideological precepts, all while having to arm themselves around their children every day, that may be where they have to end up.

By the way, it might please you to know that I myself graduated with a 2.42 GPA, and placed 141st in a class of 183. So you can be certain I won’t be allowed anywhere near the head of even a deep red state classroom—at least not yet!

[Tigerbomb13]

3 hours ago, Archie said:

You would have to be born after 2000 to think this.  Todays democrats are nothing like democrats of the past generations.  Current dems are the most anti-American fascists ever.  Yes, there are some far right crazies in the Republican party but a lot more far left wack jobs in the democrat party.  Up until around 1990 Dems and Republicans had the same goals and that was to better the USA.  They just had different ways of obtaining it.  Today's democrats are more about what they can do for people in other countries, how they can support criminals and crazies and tear down the USA.  Biden and his comrades have not done one single thing to help the American people.  He goes down as the biggest failure as POTUS ever!

This HAS to be satire at this point, right? Well done!

[1984Echoes]

5 hours ago, ewsieg said:

That's why Build Back Better was signed into law, oh wait.

You're saying that Build Back Better is the same as trying to overthrow the Constitution of the United States?

WTF is wrong with you?

[1984Echoes]

3 hours ago, Archie said:

You would have to be born after 2000 to think this.  Todays democrats are nothing like democrats of the past generations.  Current dems are the most anti-American fascists ever.  Yes, there are some far right crazies in the Republican party but a lot more far left wack jobs in the democrat party.  Up until around 1990 Dems and Republicans had the same goals and that was to better the USA.  They just had different ways of obtaining it.  Today's democrats are more about what they can do for people in other countries, how they can support criminals and crazies and tear down the USA.  Biden and his comrades have not done one single thing to help the American people.  He goes down as the biggest failure as POTUS ever!

"Lay off the drugs, kid."

[Mr.TaterSalad]

3 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

I still struggle to find what is so extreme about universal health care, gun control, LGBT rights, pro-abortion, affordable college, etc? These are all things offered in modern developed countries. Is Norway extreme? Canada? Australia? Sweden? On the flip side, what countries want to ban abortion, encourage more gun ownership, restrict what can be said in schools, ban books, anti LGBT, no universal health care, no affordable college, etc? 

Hungary under Viktor Orban is one that comes to mind. It is no surprise that Trump loves and endorsed Orban for re-election. I think an ideal MAGA country would be a hybrid between George Wallace's Alabama of the 1960's and Viktor Orban's Hungary of the present day. Jair Bolsonaro and what he's done in Brazil is another example of what MAGA folks would like our nation to embody and be like.

[ewsieg]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

You're saying that Build Back Better is the same as trying to overthrow the Constitution of the United States?

WTF is wrong with you?

Hey man, chill out.  It is possible to speak about other issues and not try and compare it to the worst thing you can think of and hate about anything with an opposing view point.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Hey man, chill out.  It is possible to speak about other issues and not try and compare it to the worst thing you can think of and hate about anything with an opposing view point.

Yeah...

I get that.

If we were talking about policy... it would are you for or against a policy... and a discussion about policy.

But passing or not passing, or squabbling over a policy (from the Senate's perspective as you were pointing out...)

Is nowhere near the point that I had made. Which was that the extremists in the Republican Party are trying to overthrow the Constitution of the United States. Whereas the wide range of policy positions within the Dem Party, from Centrist (Manchin etal) to traditional to what you would call extreme (AOC etal...) is not the same. And... that the Dem Party is not "controlled" by extremists. In fact, your BBB comment just proved that point. Manchin was able to stop it because he wanted a couple programs at 10 years funding instead of multiple programs at a couple years funding. And he won. The Centrist won. Proves my point.

Alternatively, the Republican Party has come under the dominant sway of the Fascists. Don't kiss Trump's feet, lose your primary.

That's where I'm getting the "WTF" comment if you think BBB passing or not passing makes the Dems the same as the Republicans who are trying to overthrow our Democracy. So, not to repeat myself, but, you know... wtf?

[ewsieg]

I was never trying to compare the crazies in each party and which one was worse.  In fact if you reread what I wrote, I acknowledged the GOP has a bigger issue with this, it's not even close.

My point still stands though, each party is largely being held hostage by a small but loud group in their respective parties.  My example of BBB is that you didn't need a single GOP vote.  Not one.  Would AOC/Sanders be happy with a compromised bill, nope.  Would Manchin/Sinema be happy with a compromised bill, nope, but all your party needed to do, was put something together, give it to Biden, and put a W on the board.   

Instead, no one even talks about the infrastructure bill anymore and all people saw was dem in-fighting for months as we moved into economic uneasiness.   Trust me, i'm not trying to 'what about' you or your party.  In fact i'm rooting for it.  The GOP doesn't change until it can't win an election.  I'm just annoyed the dems can't put it together and find a way to beat up on the GOP.

 

[CMRivdogs]

Democrats in disarray 

 

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

...

My point still stands though, each party is largely being held hostage by a small but loud group in their respective parties.  My example of BBB is that you didn't need a single GOP vote.  Not one.  Would AOC/Sanders be happy with a compromised bill, nope.  Would Manchin/Sinema be happy with a compromised bill, nope, but all your party needed to do, was put something together, give it to Biden, and put a W on the board... 

Mmm... Yeah, I'm not certain about that.

Meaning... if you're trying to convince anyone that the extremes in the Dem Party are holding it hostage, your BBB example is still way off, it's a bad example. A Centrist (or two) held that bill hostage.

And if you're arguing that they couldn't come to an agreement and get a Bill to Biden... well, if you have a party with a diverse spectrum of political opinions then that is exactly WHAT we should expect, that they can't always reach an agreement. 

However, on the more simple point that it's disappointing that they couldn't get over their disagreements to produce said Bill... because it would also be a political win and provide additional ammo in the battle against the Republicans in upcoming elections... Well yes, I do agree on that.

 

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

... Instead, no one even talks about the infrastructure bill anymore and all people saw was dem in-fighting for months as we moved into economic uneasiness.   Trust me, i'm not trying to 'what about' you or your party.  In fact i'm rooting for it.  The GOP doesn't change until it can't win an election.  I'm just annoyed the dems can't put it together and find a way to beat up on the GOP.

This is never going to be easy. The GOP has a gerry-mandered and electoral advantage that is extremely difficult to overcome. The fascists in the party are willing to lie, cheat, steal, intimidate, or straight up commit fraud to take election wins, deserved or not. And America still remains a "what have you done lately for my wallet" country. They could care less if the Dems are doing great things, or not.

"Republicans means more money in my pocket (which is insanely BS), I hate Dems no MATTER WHAT, and Inflation is ALL Biden's fault".

Americans (in general, as a stereotype...), are incapable of thinking beyond their wallet/ about the greater good/ about whether or not to preserve our Democracy/ etc., etc., etc.

Individually there are a lot of people who don't meet that definition. But they're being overwhelmed by the people who do. I'm saddened.

I'm thinking about leaving for another country.

I can't stand this cesspool that the white trash bigots of this country have created. It disgusts me.

[Crazy Cat Gentleman]

one dead, two injured:

 

[Edman85]

33 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Gentleman said:

one dead, two injured:

 

 

It is high time to put turrets in the holy water. There's no other option. Put a handgun in the collection plate just in case.

[ewsieg]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Meaning... if you're trying to convince anyone that the extremes in the Dem Party are holding it hostage, your BBB example is still way off, it's a bad example. A Centrist (or two) held that bill hostage.

Question for you, what do you believe was the best part of the BBB bill?

 

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I can't stand this cesspool that the white trash bigots of this country have created. It disgusts me.

See, there is a place for different minded people to come together.  I'm not going to go so far as to say they disgust me, but it definitely saddens me.  I just go further and look at the cesspool of elitists that believe their way of life is the only correct way to live it.  They sadden me as well.  

[Motown Bombers]

 

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

De-platformed in 3, 2, 1.....

[1984Echoes]

9 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Question for you, what do you believe was the best part of the BBB bill?

I'm going to go to the centrist/ fiscal conservative side of my personality to answer this:

Foremost in my mind is the tight labor market causing inflation. 

So... I would want the free kindergarten and the childcare assistance first and foremost since women are staying at home instead of entering the workforce specifically because of these costs. Reduce these costs in the US, millions of young women/ mothers jump back into the workforce, and inflationary pressures in salaries drop.

I'm also a firm believer in a college education and therefore a reduction in college loans and/or a reduction in college tuition is a positive for the overall future of this country. The more educated, since we are now fully in an information/ AI/ renewables/ etc. economy, the better.

Someone might have some different viewpoints, but I think those two are at the top of my want list...

Anything after that is gravy for whoever has a vested interest in those mashed potatoes.

[ewsieg]

27 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I'm going to go to the centrist/ fiscal conservative side of my personality to answer this:

Foremost in my mind is the tight labor market causing inflation. 

So... I would want the free kindergarten and the childcare assistance first and foremost since women are staying at home instead of entering the workforce specifically because of these costs. Reduce these costs in the US, millions of young women/ mothers jump back into the workforce, and inflationary pressures in salaries drop.

I'm also a firm believer in a college education and therefore a reduction in college loans and/or a reduction in college tuition is a positive for the overall future of this country. The more educated, since we are now fully in an information/ AI/ renewables/ etc. economy, the better.

Someone might have some different viewpoints, but I think those two are at the top of my want list...

Anything after that is gravy for whoever has a vested interest in those mashed potatoes.

Manchin had a few things I remember him quipping about, spending too much on renewables when he felt we were already investing a ton and spending would just outpace technology and he didn't like the child tax credits, at least how they were written in the bill.   Sinema helped kill off the tax hike.   So what you posted above, while a much leaner bill than what was proposed originally, could have been passed.  The two things that you believe would benefit this country could already be made into law by now.   Instead we get nothing and only get to feel better about it by blaming Manchin and Sinema with the hope that come next election, everyone shifts the blame to the GOP.

[1984Echoes]

And that's because there is a wide diversity of political opinions within the Dem Party and therefore not one faction is able to exert control over the entire party. 

Aside from holding Centrist sentiments... I'm also of the mind that you "pass what you can" and what you can't pass you try for at a later time. I'm glad Infrastructure passed. I'm glad it was separated from the rest of BBB because that was not only "what could be passed", it was also what was could be passed to include bipartisanship along with whatever Republicans decided they would actually vote for infrastructure which this country clearly has needed for at least 20 years.

I think, politically, it's smarter to "pass what you can" with the balance of BBB items, even if it's only 2 out of 10, because passing 2 is better than passing 0. I think you are stating that and I'm on board with that, always have been. If the rest of the Dem Party could get on board, and decide to pass 3 of the 10... a bill could still be hammered out. And then the balance gets determined in the 2022 elections. I know it's not looking good for Dems at this point... But I pass 2 or 3 of those 10, get what we can, and then I would bet on myself (the Dem Party) and hope for the best.

[Motor City Sonics]

Wow.  The people in charge at Oxford Schools...........how do they sleep at night?  

Ask EMU about what happens when you cover up crimes on your campus. 

Hint: Nothing good.  

Edited June 17, 2022 by Motor City Sonics

[chasfh]

Highlighted the part below in bold red: Might those not be three underlying reasons why young white men shoot up public places?

Also, the part about appealing to young men.

Feels like the industry is spurring mass shootings with knowledge aforethought.

5. Gun sellers' new pitch: Man up!

The Martinez family views rifles in the exhibit hall during the NRA convention in Houston last month. Photo: Brandon Bell/Getty Images An emboldened gun industry is luring buyers with rhetoric of fear, machismo and defiance, the N.Y. Times reports (subscription): "Gun companies have spent the last two decades ... refocusing their message away from hunting toward selling handguns for personal safety, as well as military-style weapons attractive to mostly young men." Pressure points the industry has found useful in selling more guns: "self-esteem, lack of trust in others, fear of losing control." Why it matters: The tactics have been remarkably successful. "Firearm sales have skyrocketed, with background checks rising from 8.5 million in 2000 to 38.9 million last year," The Times notes. "Women, spurred by appeals that play on fears of crime and being caught unprepared, are the fastest-growing segment of buyers."

[Mr.TaterSalad]

On 6/17/2022 at 10:57 AM, 1984Echoes said:

And that's because there is a wide diversity of political opinions within the Dem Party and therefore not one faction is able to exert control over the entire party. 

Aside from holding Centrist sentiments... I'm also of the mind that you "pass what you can" and what you can't pass you try for at a later time. I'm glad Infrastructure passed. I'm glad it was separated from the rest of BBB because that was not only "what could be passed", it was also what was could be passed to include bipartisanship along with whatever Republicans decided they would actually vote for infrastructure which this country clearly has needed for at least 20 years.

I think, politically, it's smarter to "pass what you can" with the balance of BBB items, even if it's only 2 out of 10, because passing 2 is better than passing 0. I think you are stating that and I'm on board with that, always have been. If the rest of the Dem Party could get on board, and decide to pass 3 of the 10... a bill could still be hammered out. And then the balance gets determined in the 2022 elections. I know it's not looking good for Dems at this point... But I pass 2 or 3 of those 10, get what we can, and then I would bet on myself (the Dem Party) and hope for the best.

I disagree that one particular group doesn't have a hold over the party. I think Bill Clinton proved 25 years ago that the centerists will crush anyone that gets in their way and they'll do what they want. Deregulation, NAFTA, welfare reforms, pushing a homophobic agenda to ban gay marriage, Clinton got everything he wanted.

Barack Obama again proved centrist dominance in the 2010s by extending the NSA program, passing the NDAA, killing the public option in Obamacare, and ensuring the misery of millions of Americans by bailing out Wall Street instead of homeowners, and ensuring the stimulus he passed was negligible in nature.

Joe Biden's victory over both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, coupled with the air tight control that Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin have on the Senate proves continued centrist dominance. Progressives lost control of the party in the 80s and 90s when all the FDR and New Deal Democrats were pushed out in favor of pro-corporate, Third Way Democrats.

Centrists have won almost every big, significant policy fight in D.C. over progressives over the past 30 years.

[chasfh]

That’s because Democratic centrists have long had the broad general support of the establishment and to some degree the people at large, and extreme leftists have practically never had that.

This is a conservative country with a warped sense of its own frontier history and present, and as such will tolerate as normative the extreme on only one side of the spectrum, because that side is friendlier to lone wolves, and people like to see themselves as rugged individualists responsible for and to only themselves. That’s what right-wing extremism promotes, which is the opposite of the collectivism left-wing extremism promotes.

The more any policy requires or promotes any kind of social cooperation among people in order to work, the more likely it will fail in America.