Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Tiger337]

Wow, Tucker Carlson blames the parade shooting on women nagging men about their male privilege (along with other dumb reasons)  

 

 

[Archie]

Its now reported that the shooter was considered a "clear and present danger" by police in 2019.  That should have triggered red flags during his background check but it didn't.  It not a big surprise but government agencies didn't do their jobs.  Laws don't matter if they are not enforced.  There is no reason to punish legal and law abiding gun owners because the government failed to do their job - again.  

https://1010wcsi.com/fox-news/police-flagged-highland-park-shooter-clear-and-present-danger-in-2019-he-later-cleared-4-background-checks/

[Motown Bombers]

12 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Hey, I agree with an assault rifle ban, but poor statistical analysis is poor statistical analysis.

Oh, so you have statistical analysis that social media contributed to a rise in mass shootings by assault weapons? Also, was there not war before? Vietnam? Gulf War? One statistic that isn't up for debate is that 100% of mass shootings with an assault weapon are done with an assault weapon. Whatever you want to say about motivations for carrying out the shootings, they are all done with assault rifles. Lack of access lead to lack of mass shootings with those weapons. 

[Archie]

21 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Oh, so you have statistical analysis that social media contributed to a rise in mass shootings by assault weapons? Also, was there not war before? Vietnam? Gulf War? One statistic that isn't up for debate is that 100% of mass shootings with an assault weapon are done with an assault weapon. Whatever you want to say about motivations for carrying out the shootings, they are all done with assault rifles. Lack of access lead to lack of mass shootings with those weapons. 

Are you sure?  An assault rifle is defined as:

 any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire.

Are you aware of what requirements are needed to purchase an assault rifle, how long it takes or costs involved?  I think these shooters or cowards are using semi-automatic rifles and not assault rifles.  The liberals and their media partners like to dump all rifles into the same category but that is just a scare tactic to take firearms away from law abiding citizens.  I heard the media describe the firearm as a high powered rifle.  That's easy because almost all rifles, including hunting rifles are "high powered" and semi automatic.  

[mtutiger]

42 minutes ago, Archie said:

Its now reported that the shooter was considered a "clear and present danger" by police in 2019.  That should have triggered red flags during his background check but it didn't.  It not a big surprise but government agencies didn't do their jobs.  Laws don't matter if they are not enforced.  There is no reason to punish legal and law abiding gun owners because the government failed to do their job - again.  

https://1010wcsi.com/fox-news/police-flagged-highland-park-shooter-clear-and-present-danger-in-2019-he-later-cleared-4-background-checks/

From the article:

Quote

“In September 2019, ISP received a Clear and Present Danger report on the subject from the Highland Park Police Department. The report was related to threats the subject made against his family,” Illinois State Police said in a statement posted to Twitter by a staff member for Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker.

The report said that when Highland Park officers went to the family’s home and asked Crimo if he felt like harming himself of others, he said no. Police said Crimo’s father claimed knives in the home belonged to him and they were being kept in Crimo’s closet for safekeeping. Based on that information, Highland Park Police returned the knives to the father that day.

The statement said police did not make any arrests at the time and that members of the family were “not willing to move forward on a complaint.”

Members of the family also did not “provide information on threats or mental health that would have allowed law enforcement to take additional action,” the ISP statement added.

“Additionally, no Firearms Restraining Order was filed, nor any order of protection,” ISP said.

Such action police could have taken included revoking a licensed-gun owner’s Firearm Owners Identification card (FOID), which is required in the state to own or purchase a firearm.

Illinois State Police said at the time of the September 2019 incident the suspect “did not have a FOID card to revoke or a pending FOID application to deny.”

Three months later, Crimo did apply and successfully obtained an FOID card, police said.

“The subject was under 21 and the application was sponsored by the subject’s father. Therefore, at the time of the FOID application review in January of 2020, there was an insufficient basis to establish a clear and present danger and deny the FOID application,” police said.

Maybe buddha or someone who understands Illinois law better can interject, but I don't believe the Illinois State Police legally could have just denied his application for an FOID card without an actual arrest on his record. 

Maybe we'll learn more information, but the villians in this case seem to be the family, who largely seemed to circle the wagons at critical junctures when Crimo III interacted with the police, and who decided to sponsor Crimo III when he was eligible to get an FOID card.

Edited July 6, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

As an aside, I also love how Archie blames "government agencies".... is it that hard to call them the police, or do you have to turn in your "blue lives matter" card the moment you criticize law enforcement?

[buddha]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

From the article:

Maybe buddha or someone who understands Illinois law better can interject, but I don't believe the Illinois State Police legally could have just denied his application for an FOID card without an actual arrest on his record. 

Maybe we'll learn more information, but the villians in this case seem to be the family, who largely seemed to circle the wagons at critical junctures when Crimo III interacted with the police, and who decided to sponsor Crimo III when he was eligible to get an FOID card.

that's a good question.  i dont know the answer.

[buddha]

10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

From the article:

Maybe buddha or someone who understands Illinois law better can interject, but I don't believe the Illinois State Police legally could have just denied his application for an FOID card without an actual arrest on his record. 

Maybe we'll learn more information, but the villians in this case seem to be the family, who largely seemed to circle the wagons at critical junctures when Crimo III interacted with the police, and who decided to sponsor Crimo III when he was eligible to get an FOID card.

https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/Firearms/AppealOptions.aspx

 

here's a list of revocation reasons.

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

that's a good question.  i dont know the answer.

Yeah, probably better to take a wait and see. I guess my point is that, while it's a terrible look for ISP, I don't know that we have enough information at this point to know whether, legally, there was a basis to deny Crimo III an FOID card. 

That kinda nuanced view isn't gonna work in the world we live in though.

[mtutiger]

17 minutes ago, buddha said:

https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/Firearms/AppealOptions.aspx

 

here's a list of revocation reasons.

FWIW, here's a comment from a Lake County attorney quoted in the Tribune:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-highland-park-gun-trace-20220706-3z6krxp2irb4pi7cj6y3ak3r4e-story.html

Quote

A clear and present danger report from September 2019 would not necessarily have been legal grounds for the state police to deny Crimo a FOID card when he applied a few months later, said Robert Deters, a Lake County criminal defense attorney who often handles FOID appeals.

Besides, Deters said, it is likely that state police did not even retain records of the clear and present danger report for very long after receiving it.

“(ISP’s) Firearms Services Bureau is an overwhelmed mess of a bureaucratic office,” he said. “... What was already a very slow process has gotten excruciatingly so, and I have no idea what their level of integration is for keeping track of these things. My guess is very little.”

The clear and present danger report would not have shown up on the typical law enforcement background check that is conducted for FOID applications, Deters said. Even if Crimo had been arrested after the incident with the knives, but not charged, the arrest would have shown up on the background check — but it would not have any further detail, according to Deters.

“They couldn’t even look at that and say he threatened to kill people,” he said.

Setting aside the comment about ISP's Firearm Services Bureau being bureaucratic as hell (that's Illinois for you), when you cut through the noise, there might not have been a legal basis based on law for denying him an FOID card.

That suggests less a failure of "government agencies" and more that current laws need to be looked at and strengthened.

Edited July 6, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

40 minutes ago, Archie said:

Are you sure?  An assault rifle is defined as:

 any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire.

Are you aware of what requirements are needed to purchase an assault rifle, how long it takes or costs involved?  I think these shooters or cowards are using semi-automatic rifles and not assault rifles.  The liberals and their media partners like to dump all rifles into the same category but that is just a scare tactic to take firearms away from law abiding citizens.  I heard the media describe the firearm as a high powered rifle.  That's easy because almost all rifles, including hunting rifles are "high powered" and semi automatic.  

These kinds of distinctions just serve as a distraction from the real issue.  What difference does it make what you call it?  Either way, it's an advanced machine whose only function is to kill people as quickly as possible.    

Edited July 6, 2022 by Tiger337

[Archie]

25 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

As an aside, I also love how Archie blames "government agencies".... is it that hard to call them the police, or do you have to turn in your "blue lives matter" card the moment you criticize law enforcement?

If its the fault of the police then I fully blame them.  Its my understanding there are more than one agency responsible for the red flag list so that was my reason for calling them government agency.  I don't know which one was to blame so I wasn't trying to protect anyone.  Fact is someone failed and so did the parents.  Having red flag laws and background checks aren't going to do any good if people don't do their job...whoever they may be.

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, Archie said:

If its the fault of the police then I fully blame them.  Its my understanding there are more than one agency responsible for the red flag list so that was my reason for calling them government agency.  I don't know which one was to blame so I wasn't trying to protect anyone.  Fact is someone failed and so did the parents.  Having red flag laws and background checks aren't going to do any good if people don't do their job...whoever they may be.

The Firearm Services Bureau, which is part of the Illinois State Police.

But again, we don't actually know whether didn't do their job! There has to be a legal basis for a government agency to deny an FOID card, otherwise that agency risks ending up in a lawsuit or being sued.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

FWIW, here's a comment from a Lake County attorney quoted in the Tribune:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-highland-park-gun-trace-20220706-3z6krxp2irb4pi7cj6y3ak3r4e-story.html

Setting aside the comment about ISP's Firearm Services Bureau being bureaucratic as hell (that's Illinois for you), when you cut through the noise, there might not have been a legal basis based on law for denying him an FOID card.

That suggests less a failure of "government agencies" and more that current laws need to be looked at and strengthened.

it's both.

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

it's both.

If there wasn't a legal basis to deny an FOID card, that would clearly suggest an issue with the law more than anything else imo.

And I'm not clear that there are steps that were missed along the way that would have led to that basis. At least from everything I've read to this point.

[buddha]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

If there wasn't a legal basis to deny an FOID card, that would clearly suggest an issue with the law more than anything else imo.

And I'm not clear that there are steps that were missed along the way that would have led to that basis. At least from everything I've read to this point.

knowing illinois, its part bureaucratic incompetence and part poorly written laws.  regardless, its the same old song and dance whenever something like this happens.  "well, if only we had known he was dangerous we never would have allowed him to have a gun."  sure.  funny how it always seems to happen that way.

[smr-nj]

Thank god for true Americans like Tucker Carlson, who positively identified the reason for these mass shootings!

quote:

 

[buddha]

58 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

Thank god for true Americans like Tucker Carlson, who positively identified the reason for these mass shootings!

quote:

 

the people who always chant about "personal responsibility" when black people are involved are now the first people to bring up "social conditions" when white kids are doing it.

[ewsieg]

12 hours ago, buddha said:

the people who always chant about "personal responsibility" when black people are involved are now the first people to bring up "social conditions" when white kids are doing it.

Ironically, the people who always chant about "social conditions" when black people are involved are now the first people to bring up "personal responsibility" when white kids are doing it.

To note, absolutely no excuse to do what predominantly well off white males are doing.  That said, if guns were the ONLY issue, why aren't poor white males, well off black males, poor black males, well off white females, well off black females, poor black females, adjective <gender> <race>, doing it?   

I'm not saying Carlson is right with his reasonings, but it's certainly not one lone thing (guns) that is the sole reason otherwise we'd see this issue across all genders/races/communities.  I will admit that it's not as simple as these large scale mass shootings, as there are definitely mass shootings (based on the exact definition) in minority communities as well, but the intention is not the same.  Some gun reform may be a great tool against both, but the reason for them is absolutely quite different.

[mtutiger]

6 hours ago, ewsieg said:

I'm not saying Carlson is right with his reasonings, but it's certainly not one lone thing (guns) that is the sole reason otherwise we'd see this issue across all genders/races/communities.  

Sure. But the upshot as I see it is that Carlson et. al will go to great lengths to blame literally anything and everything for these incidents *except* for the availability of weapons. And that is the context that I see his specious ramblings about privilege, social media, porn, video games, etc. 

It's not about identifying actual problems or anything like that... it's to muddy the waters to help in running out the clock on this particular news cycle.

Edited July 7, 2022 by mtutiger

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

It's not about identifying actual problems or anything like that... it's to muddy the waters to help in running out the clock on this particular news cycle.

In my theme of "one man's tyrant is another man's savior", both sides believe the other side does this, when it suits their beliefs. Additionally the other side is doing it because of bad intentions.

Oil prices are crazy high, the GOP says 'Drill baby drill!', the other side points out every other possible reason why drilling more oil won't solve everything.  In reality, gun restrictions and drilling aren't going to solve everything for their issues, but they would help.  It seems since one side touts it as the saving grace the other side just instinctively fights it, regardless of the merits.

[Tiger337]

8 hours ago, ewsieg said:

I'm not saying Carlson is right with his reasonings, but it's certainly not one lone thing (guns) that is the sole reason. 

Guns are not the reason why crazy people kill, but guns allow them to kill with great ease.  That is the problem.  

[Tiger337]

22 hours ago, smr-nj said:

Thank god for true Americans like Tucker Carlson, who positively identified the reason for these mass shootings!

quote:

 

It sounds as if Carlson is saying that American men are a bunch of cry babies who are dominated by women and they get their feelings hurt.   

[Edman85]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:32 AM, Motown Bombers said:

Oh, so you have statistical analysis that social media contributed to a rise in mass shootings by assault weapons? Also, was there not war before? Vietnam? Gulf War? One statistic that isn't up for debate is that 100% of mass shootings with an assault weapon are done with an assault weapon. Whatever you want to say about motivations for carrying out the shootings, they are all done with assault rifles. Lack of access lead to lack of mass shootings with those weapons. 

I'm not sure why that burden is on me... You repeated the correlation/causation error. I pointed that error out, even if I agree with the conclusion.

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I'm not sure why that burden is on me... You repeated the correlation/causation error. I pointed that error out, even if I agree with the conclusion.

The burden is most definitely on you. You're the one stating there is an error in the analysis and then tell me to prove your theories on social media and war aren't correlations.