Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[pfife]

1 minute ago, Archie said:

I'll agree with you to a point, its the democrats that are running the push to defund the police.  You must of missed that in Floyd protests.  Police departments should be properly funded.  I don't think they need tanks or armored cars just more people.  Republicans and Democrats should work together to get them the funds they need but we both know that will never happen in politics these days.

The Democrats have repeatedly put police funding bills in front of Republicans in the Congress, who repeatedly vote against it.   Pretty clear who's for funding the police and who isn't based on the voting records.

I'm talking about the government funding stuff here, not people protesting.    

[Motown Bombers]

The NYPD budget is over $5 billion. It increased $195 million from last year. How much more do they need? 

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The NYPD budget is over $5 billion. It increased $195 million from last year. How much more do they need? 

so I just came across an NYT story that the NYPD never used solo patrol cars before 1991. I wonder how inflation and population adjusted police funding in NYC today actually compares to then? 5B is for sure a big number but without the context who knows what it should mean.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/19/nyregion/police-to-put-lone-officers-in-patrol-cars.html

Edited April 15, 2022 by gehringer_2

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

I'll agree with you to a point, its the democrats that are running the push to defund the police.  You must of missed that in Floyd protests.  Police departments should be properly funded.  I don't think they need tanks or armored cars just more people.  Republicans and Democrats should work together to get them the funds they need but we both know that will never happen in politics these days.

Democrats get hurt on the 'defund the police' because local politicians in some places have been able to defund police departments.  Additionally, the State/Federal Dem politicians have tried to sit on a fence and hope no one looks at them which has helped continue to push the narrative that the dems are defunding the police.  If they do get questioned that's when you see them refuse to answer the question, but instead start out a response like "Well first, you need to understand what 'defund the police' actually means."

As Whitmer walked with BLM, she was working behind the scenes to increase funding and at least locally within Michigan, the push for Whitmer to do this was from some of your bigger cities in Michigan, also run by dems.   As a whole, this is norm within the Dem party right now rather than the handful of cities that have had city boards defund the police.

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

MLive: Experts say Grand Rapids police officer could have avoided fatally shooting Patrick Lyoya

From Professor Harris, the legal expert cited in the article . . .

Quote

“The idea you have to chase everybody down who tries to get away from you is simply false,” Harris said. “When the offense is wrong plate on the car, there’s no justification for it.”

This goes along the lines of what I was asking earlier. Was it really necessary to hunt and chase him down like that? Was the ensuing scuffle really necessary?

[Motown Bombers]

What cities have actually defunded their police? Most cities have increased their police budget and police budgets remain one of the highest costs of any city's police budget. The fact is, only a few extreme Democrats came up with Defund the Police. I have no idea why they thought that was a good slogan. I used to be one who always voted for police milage increases but not anymore. I continue to see police in my city just ignore basic traffic laws. It makes me wonder why I should continue to support them. 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

MLive: Experts say Grand Rapids police officer could have avoided fatally shooting Patrick Lyoya

From Professor Harris, the legal expert cited in the article . . .

This goes along the lines of what I was asking earlier. Was it really necessary to hunt and chase him down like that? Was the ensuing scuffle really necessary?

Was it really necessary for the suspect to flee and resist arrest? I mean, if it was just the wrong plate, why did he need to flee? Everyone should just start fleeing when they get pulled over. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

Was it really necessary for the suspect to flee and resist arrest? I mean, if it was just the wrong plate, why did he need to flee? Everyone should just start fleeing when they get pulled over. 

No, the suspect shouldn't flee, but the Officer doesn't know the suspect nor why he's fleeing. It's the Officers responsibility to protect himself, protect the alleged suspect, and protect other innocent bystanders. Suppose Patrick Lyoya suffered from a mental illness like Paranoid Schizophrenia and something/someone in his mind told him to flee. Suppose he had a developmental disability and couldn't comprehend the situation entirely. Suppose he was just scared shitless and panicked. The Officer involved doesn't know Patrick or what's going on in his mind. Thus, in this situation, given that Patrick was not wanted at the time as a suspect for a violent crime, maybe pursuit wasn't the best course of action. 

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

No, the suspect shouldn't flee, but the Officer doesn't know the suspect nor why he's fleeing. It's the Officers responsibility to protect himself, protect the alleged suspect, and protect other innocent bystanders. Suppose Patrick Lyoya suffered from a mental illness like Paranoid Schizophrenia and something/someone in his mind told him to flee. Suppose he had a developmental disability and couldn't comprehend the situation entirely. Suppose he was just scared shitless and panicked. The Officer involved doesn't know Patrick or what's going on in his mind. Thus, in this situation, given that Patrick was not wanted at the time as a suspect for a violent crime, maybe pursuit wasn't the best course of action. 

Or suppose that Lyoya was the Brooklyn Subway shooter. The cop didn't know who he was or if he had warrants out for his arrest. The fact that he is riding around with the wrong plate on his car and gets out and flees is a serious red flag that he probably has some bad warrants out for his arrest. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

This appears to be the moment that the Officer fired the gun at Lyoya. It appears to be in the back of his head and the Officer appears to have leverage over him in this situation. Now, what you can't see is the taser or what may or may not be in Lyoya's hands at this moment. If Lyoya had gained control of the taser in this moment I guess I don't know what would be the proper course of action and ultimate justification.

My initial reaction was that Lyoya shouldn't have been shot. But if he grabbed the Officer's taser, is the Officer then justified in this situation?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[buddha]

27 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

No, the suspect shouldn't flee, but the Officer doesn't know the suspect nor why he's fleeing. It's the Officers responsibility to protect himself, protect the alleged suspect, and protect other innocent bystanders. Suppose Patrick Lyoya suffered from a mental illness like Paranoid Schizophrenia and something/someone in his mind told him to flee. Suppose he had a developmental disability and couldn't comprehend the situation entirely. Suppose he was just scared shitless and panicked. The Officer involved doesn't know Patrick or what's going on in his mind. Thus, in this situation, given that Patrick was not wanted at the time as a suspect for a violent crime, maybe pursuit wasn't the best course of action. 

you just let him go?

chicago is changing their chase policy to such that you need a supervisor's approval to chase a suspect.

i suspect that wont last long in the current political climate.  the democrats are getting trashed all over foe crime and their affinity for criminal justice reform following the george floyd riots.  they will be passing all sorts of tough on crime leglislation this year if they can.  but their left wing and the republicans may not let them.

as to defunding the police, the democrats' left wing did it no favors with that rhetoric and their expresses sympathy with criminals who dont happen to be white, but in reality, it is republicans who "defund the police" by trying to starve the beast of government that pays police salaries.  

[Motown Bombers]

Ironically it's mostly red states that have the highest crime, particularly violent crime. Once again the Democrats don't know how to message and come up with Defund the Police. 

[Tigeraholic1]

This sure is a sad story. Most of these sad stories start with not complying with the officer. 

[Tigeraholic1]

51 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

No, the suspect shouldn't flee, but the Officer doesn't know the suspect nor why he's fleeing. It's the Officers responsibility to protect himself, protect the alleged suspect, and protect other innocent bystanders. Suppose Patrick Lyoya suffered from a mental illness like Paranoid Schizophrenia and something/someone in his mind told him to flee. Suppose he had a developmental disability and couldn't comprehend the situation entirely. Suppose he was just scared shitless and panicked. The Officer involved doesn't know Patrick or what's going on in his mind. Thus, in this situation, given that Patrick was not wanted at the time as a suspect for a violent crime, maybe pursuit wasn't the best course of action. 

You have  alot of what if's. What if the Officer felt the suspect would harm someone if he let him flee? Not arguing your points just looking at it from Officers point of view. 

[gehringer_2]

22 minutes ago, buddha said:

you just let him go?

I think we have both a conservative and a liberal here in agreement that the solution is to attempt fewer apprehensions under conditions that give a perp less motivation to resist ( less hope of successful escape).

[pfife]

It totally does seem like expired plates is something that can be done automatically without police interfacing with community.   I drove through pennsylvania and the turnpikes apparently just take a picture of your license plate and send you the bill.   Seems like something that could be done for license plate tabs.

[Motown Bombers]

I was under the impression the license plate was off a different vehicle? That's not the same as missing or expired tags. 

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You have  alot of what if's. What if the Officer felt the suspect would harm someone if he let him flee? Not arguing your points just looking at it from Officers point of view. 

legally it will be looked at from a "reasonable officer's" point of view.  whatever that means, lol.

but i tell you what, it really looks bad for the officer, imo.

you couldnt pay me enough to be a cop.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Ironically it's mostly red states that have the highest crime, particularly violent crime. Once again the Democrats don't know how to message and come up with Defund the Police. 

that's a little misleading considering the most violent places in those red states are in blue cities like memphis, st louis, new orleans, etc.

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, buddha said:

that's a little misleading considering the most violent places in those red states are in blue cities like memphis, st louis, new orleans, etc.

And the most violent places in blue states are in blue cities like Detroit, Chicago, Newark etc. and yet the blue states still have lower violent crime. 

[Motown Bombers]

Thankfully the Republican dominated state government in Tennessee is passing bills to marry children instead of addressing crime in Memphis. 

[buddha]

3 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

And the most violent places in blue states are in blue cities like Detroit, Chicago, Newark etc. and yet the blue states still have lower violent crime. 

all the big crime is in "blue" run cities, so im not sure why you're banging this drum so much.

regardless, the democrats are tarred with the "anti-cop" rhetoric of their most left wing members, which is a boon to republicans everywhere.

[Motown Bombers]

17 minutes ago, buddha said:

all the big crime is in "blue" run cities, so im not sure why you're banging this drum so much.

regardless, the democrats are tarred with the "anti-cop" rhetoric of their most left wing members, which is a boon to republicans everywhere.

And all the big crime is in red states. Blue states have blue cities that are bigger and bluer than blue cities in red states and still have less violent crime. Perhaps it's the easier access to guns? Why does Oklahoma have a higher murder rate than Michigan? What city in Oklahoma is bluer and more violent than Detroit?

[Motown Bombers]

Minnesota has the 6th lowest homicide rate in the country. Must be those red cities of Minneapolis and St Paul. 

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Minnesota has the 6th lowest homicide rate in the country. Must be those red cities of Minneapolis and St Paul. 

Let me guess - Homicide actually tracks a state's educational attainment level, and the blue state have better schools?