Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Kacie]

7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I think there could be some bi-partisan support for most of this even if there was some slight modifications to it. What about this

Either 3a or part of 4) checks include social media review

and

9) For any of the above reasons you are denied a gun, you are automatically put into some mental health program.

By all means, define "mental health program".  It's so sickening that this is the fall back, "mental health".  Do tell as well, who is going to pay for all the "mental health programs"?  

A good friend of mine has a daughter who is schizophrenic.  She sat in the psych ER for DAYS waiting for a bed to open up in a psych hospital.  The parents are a physician and a CPA, so not a financial issue.  The Trumprturds are treating mental health just like they are the LGBT community.  They're acting like this is just all some new craze based on the lack of "god". When the reality is it's always been a thing.  Just like the Republicans to call for a complicated vague solution and then vote against every program that would work to accomplish that.

[Hongbit]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Wow

This sounds like something made up after the fact to try and cover their ass.

If they felt the suspect was barricaded in a room they would’ve entered the school and closed their perimeter around him as much as possible and keep him contained.    They also should’ve entered to free students in other parts of the school.   
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kacie]

27 minutes ago, Archie said:

Abbott isn't evil and the guy writing that is more evil than Abbott for saying that. Disagree with someones politics doesn't make them evil.  The killer was evil.  How could someone do what he did and not be evil.

The guy let people fucking freeze to death for a buck.  He's PAYING people to snitch on someone who will get an abortion, but will do nothing to prevent children from being shot.  That isn't political, that's fucking evil.

[chasfh]

10 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

This sounds like something made up after the fact to try and cover their ass.

 

That's what police reports are really intended to do: tell as much truth as they can afford to, with the underlying goal of covering their ass and deflecting blame or responsibility for anything that went wrong, and massaging the message as needed to achieve that. At its core, the police report is an exercise in establishing favorable narrative, much of it driven by FOP considerations to protect what they see as their members' rights.

I'm not saying anything like "all police reports are a pack of lies." That statement on its face is not true. I'm sure they occupy a spectrum that includes telling the actual unvarnished truth about whatever happened.

What I am saying is that we've learned so much about how some police reports have doctored the truth or even flat out lied about what really happened, I believe we should never trust a police report prima facie as being the unimpeachable truth.

[ewsieg]

20 minutes ago, Kacie said:

By all means, define "mental health program".  It's so sickening that this is the fall back, "mental health".  Do tell as well, who is going to pay for all the "mental health programs"?  

A good friend of mine has a daughter who is schizophrenic.  She sat in the psych ER for DAYS waiting for a bed to open up in a psych hospital.  The parents are a physician and a CPA, so not a financial issue.  The Trumprturds are treating mental health just like they are the LGBT community.  They're acting like this is just all some new craze based on the lack of "god". When the reality is it's always been a thing.  Just like the Republicans to call for a complicated vague solution and then vote against every program that would work to accomplish that.

Well first, reread what I was responding to and what I added.   I didn't say the answer is more guns and say mental health is the issue as I work to cut funding to more mental health programs like most of the GOP does.

What I'm saying is in addition to some common sense gun laws, we absolutely should address mental health as well.  It is a real problem, healthy people don't just shoot up schools or events just because they realized they have easy access to guns.  We're also not getting rid of all the guns here, even if some of the most progressive gun laws were enacted.  As such, if someone wants a gun and they are deemed not worthy of having one, maybe it would be good to be a little proactive.  

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

 

I've been thinking more about what Abbott said, that he considers the shooter to be "pure evil".

"Evil" is a handy term to use in cases like mass shootings because for a lot of people, "evil" is code for "Satan". That's because evil, like its antithesis "good", is a religious concept, not a behavioral concept. The religious people who still make up the strong majority in this country believe that "good" and "evil" are personality traits endowed by supernatural beings which control our behavior. God makes us do good; Satan makes us do evil.

So those people who believe this was an act of evil, specifically, seek to portray mass shootings as a spiritual failing, not a physical or social or policy failing.

This has huge and obvious implications for gun policy in America.

If we have a strong belief in the presence and power of "evil"—if we believe that there is some supernatural being who is the source of all evil, a being who influences evil and leads people to act in an evil manner—well, then, there's nothing we can do to stop it. Whatever power we might have must pale against the power of this supernatural being. So, all we can do in reaction is to wait for the evil to happen, and then shoot down or lock up the bad guys driven by the evil, and trust that those bad guys will eventually receive their truly just punishment after they die.

That is, in fact, the exact policy that civilizations have been following for centuries, and which many—including the United States of America—still employ today.

On the other hand: if we believe that people act in a certain way for a reason—whether it is a physical problem such as brain damage or mental illness that leads people to do really bad things for no apparent or logical reason; a systemic failure that creates an incentive to behave badly; and /or a policy failure that makes such weapons so easy and convenient to obtain—then we can fully embrace the idea that we can do something to stop this behavior by changing the systems, and then actually undertaking the hard work to do so.

The key difference is that in the former case, the only way to combat the problem of mass shootings is to petition really hard to the Supernatural Being of Good to defeat the Supernatural Being of Evil, and to touch the hearts of men to be good. You know—thoughts and prayers.

With the latter case, the way to combat the problem is to apply scientific rigor and analysis to understand the physical problems that lead to inexplicable bad behavior, to understand the systemic problems that lead to warped incentives, or to understand how policy failures enables one to easily carry out this act, and then test and improve the methods to combat these things that lead to the behavior.

In the former case, we push off the responsibility of change to beings we trust but cannot interact with, and simply wait and hope for results. In the latter case, we take on the responsibility for change unto ourselves and undertake the hard work to make results happen.

That's the policy consideration at hand, as it relates to mass shootings.

So what's it going to be? Do we carry on with the traditional policy of reacting to acts of evil with thoughts and prayers? Or should we try something else for a change?

this is great post Chasfh, nailed it right on the head. Evil is always invoked as an excuse for abdicating responsibility. People act out what they believe, and what they believe is what their environment has mirrored of back to them. That may be faulty either because their environment was faulty or because mental illness prevented reality from being mirrored back to them accurately. Either way it's an excuse to pass things off to the metaphysical realm while passing on our own responsibility to create a society that will reflect a better environment in people's minds or care for those whose minds are not capable of it. Don't these believers in Satan's agency ever wonder why he seems so content to sleep on all those secularists everywhere else in the world? You'd think they would figure out they must be praying to the wrong God by now.

But yeah - I know, being attacked by Satan must surely be a sign of one's piety. So many lost/misled people in this country....

Edited May 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

 

[gehringer_2]

54 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Wow

That is how the training usually reads -  secure the site, wait for more tactical support. Unless of course it's a darker shaded person selling cigarettes or some other situation where time is truly of the essence.....

[Archie]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Common sense gun laws which will not prevent responsible gun owners from having guns:

(1) Must be 21 and over to purchase gun. - Why?  A person can be required to fight and kill for his country at 18.  Why would they have to wait until they are 21 to protect their families and themselves?

(2) Must serve in military for at least a year to purchsase a gun. - This is stupid.  Not everyone can serve in the military and trust me, the military doesn't make a person sane or more qualified to own a firearm. 

(3) Very strict background checks - Check...Already being done

(4) If you have any kind of criminal background, domestic abuse history or have threatened anyone with violence, you don't get to own a gun.  Check...Already being done

(5) Severe penalties for selling guns to people who don't meet the above criteria. Check...Already being done 

(6) Severe penalties for possessing a gun without meeting the above criteria.  Check...Already being done 

(7) Must go to regular training to learn/practice technique and safety.  If you have a permit to carry its already being done.

(8) There would also be limits on the number and types of guns people would be allowed to purchase.  Why.  It only takes one gun, one bullet and one person to use it to shoot someone.  

Everything you propose only hurts the legal gun owner.  What's your proposal to take illegal guns off the streets and out of the hands illegal gun owners.  How to end the hundreds if not thousand of kids being shot in places like Chicago?

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

this is great post Chasfh, nailed it right on the head. Evil is always invoked as an excuse for abdicating responsibility. People act out what they believe, and what they believe is what their environment has mirrored of back to them. That may be faulty either because their environment was faulty or because mental illness prevented reality from being mirrored back to them accurately. Either way it's an excuse to pass things off to the metaphysical realm while passing on our own responsibility to create a society that will reflect a better environment in people's minds or care for those whose minds are not capable of it. Don't these believers in Satan's agency ever wonder why he seems so content to sleep on all those secularists everywhere else in the world. You'd think they would figure out they must be praying to the wrong God by now.

While I believe that ordinary everyday people who believe in god and satan, good and evil, etc., generally come by their beliefs honestly because they have nothing more at stake than their souls, I also believe that people with power who also profess these same beliefs may or may not have come by them honestly, but in all cases understand that it's good business for them, whether electorally, financially, or other.

In this case, if you're a politician who gets a lot of money from the gun lobby, dismissing mass shooters as being driven only by evil, and by nothing else, seems like a sure way to deflect scrutiny away from your own policy decisions and onto "Satan" where it belongs. That will keep more guns flowing throughout the country, because after all, if you believe in evil as an active, powerful supernatural force, then you know you can't stop evil from happening in the first place, but you can stop people overcome by evil afterwards with a good guy's guns. Or so I've heard.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Archie said:

Everything you propose only hurts the legal gun owner.  What's your proposal to take illegal guns off the streets and out of the hands illegal gun owners.  How to end the hundreds if not thousand of kids being shot in places like Chicago?

Millions of illegal guns are confiscated every year by the police. Even if a perp has a gun, once he knows he can't easily get another one, he is far less likely to carry it on the street. A gun in a closet is damn site safer than one on the street. If he does get it out to commit a crime  -if he get's caught, it will be confiscated. These are not insoluble problems. Of course it takes time, maybe years - who cares? Let's move in the right direction.

If you happened on an isolated population where not a sole know anything about written language, it would take a generation before you had any reasonable level of literacy, does that mean you refuse to open the first school? Human capital and human society require investment to build up and that can take time, but investments are assumed to yield dividends over time, not instantly.

[gehringer_2]

and frankly I don't give a damn if it hurts the legal gun owner. The legal gun owner needs his guns a lot less than kids in American need to live.

[chasfh]

 

God bless the Onion.

[Archie]

40 minutes ago, Kacie said:

The guy let people fucking freeze to death for a buck.  He's PAYING people to snitch on someone who will get an abortion, but will do nothing to prevent children from being shot.  That isn't political, that's fucking evil.

You believe nothing should be done to prevent perfectly healthy unborn babies from being killed so how are you different from Abbott if he truly will do nothing to prevent children from being shot?  If you are saying Abbott wants kids to be shot I think you're way off base.

[mtutiger]

9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Millions of illegal guns are confiscated every year by the police. Even if a perp has a gun, once he knows he can't easily get another one, he is far less likely to carry it on the street. A gun in a closet is damn site safer than one on the street. If he does get it out to commit a crime  -if he get's caught, it will be confiscated. These are not insoluble problems. Of course it takes time, maybe years - who cares? Let's move in the right direction.

If you happened on an isolated population where not a sole know anything about written language, it would take a generation before you had any reasonable level of literacy, does that mean you refuse to open the first school? Human capital and human society require investment to build up and that can take time, but investments are assumed to yield dividends over time, not instantly.

Also, IIRC, the majority of guns intercepted in crimes committed in Chicago were acquired outside of both the city and the State of Illinois. 

Chicago/Illinois cannot control the gun laws in other jurisdictions 

Edited May 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, Archie said:

 If you are saying Abbott wants kids to be shot I think you're way off base.

Does he want them to be shot in the positive sense? No

Does he care less if they get shot than that he lose an endorsement? Obviously yes. What more proof is possible than his total deflection, abdication of responsibility, inactivity, no even obstruction, of any possible action?

The inability/unwillingness of Americans to identify or call out clear political reality when it is smacking them upside the head just because it's 'their' side, never ceases to amaze.

Edited May 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Kacie]

5 minutes ago, Archie said:

You believe nothing should be done to prevent perfectly healthy unborn babies from being killed so how are you different from Abbott if he truly will do nothing to prevent children from being shot?  If you are saying Abbott wants kids to be shot I think you're way off base.

You think nothing can be done to prevent perfectly healthy already born children from being slaughtered because of "muh rights", so how are you different from Abbott?

If Abbott didn't want kids to be shot, he could do something about.  He chooses not to change gun laws.  He chooses not to fund mental health initiatives.  He's choosing to attend a fund raiser while the bodies of the children were still warm.  He's choosing to support the NRA this weekend, instead of figuring out why the fucking trained good guys with guns sat there and did NOTHING while children begged for their lives.  That's evil.

[mtutiger]

16 minutes ago, Archie said:

You believe nothing should be done to prevent perfectly healthy unborn babies from being killed so how are you different from Abbott if he truly will do nothing to prevent children from being shot?  If you are saying Abbott wants kids to be shot I think you're way off base.

I don't believe Abbott wanted the kids shot, but having observed him for years as a resident of the state that he governs, what motivates him in situations like these isn't "doing the right thing".... it's all political calculation. Particularly since COVID, everything he does reflects whatever the poll numbers among the GOP base says. Regardless of whether it is what, as the chief executive of the state, he should do.

So yeah, when Abbott gets up there and genuflects to the cops in this particular situation when they aren't really deserving of it, I'm gonna hold that against him. Especially given that, again, he's the chief executive and the state law enforcement officials at the DPS, the same ones who were out there giving unreliable information for the past 48 or so hours, answer to him.

The buck stops with him.

Edited May 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[pfife]

You guys are being too gentle.   They aren't merely doing nothing while these things happen.   

The GOP is actively making policy that make these atrocious acts easier to commit.  

[oblong]

39 minutes ago, Archie said:

Everything you propose only hurts the legal gun owner.  What's your proposal to take illegal guns off the streets and out of the hands illegal gun owners.  How to end the hundreds if not thousand of kids being shot in places like Chicago?

I could not fucking care less about hurting the legal gun owner.  I care more about kids.

Fuck gun owners and their precious rights.  If they can't wait a bit or don't want to go through a few layers of bureaucracy to keep society safer overall then they deserve whatever hurt they imagine they are getting.

 

 

[mtutiger]

Just now, oblong said:

I could not fucking care less about hurting the legal gun owner.  I care more about kids.

Harsh, but maybe Archie should internalize that when he worries about the poor gun owners, to a lot of folks, that comes across as complete disregard for the rights of kids to be able to go to a school without fear.

[RatkoVarda]

BREAKING: The director of the Texas Department of Public Safety admitted Friday that it was the “wrong decision” for officers to wait outside a classroom door as a shooter killed children inside.

 

 

[RatkoVarda]

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by RatkoVarda

[RatkoVarda]

heartbreaking does not even come close to what this is

they were OUTSIDE the room

 

[Archie]

15 minutes ago, oblong said:

I could not fucking care less about hurting the legal gun owner.  I care more about kids.

Fuck gun owners and their precious rights.  If they can't wait a bit or don't want to go through a few layers of bureaucracy to keep society safer overall then they deserve whatever hurt they imagine they are getting.

 

 

You care about kids?  Ha!  You were one of the people here supporting abortion so like others here that's just more political theater.  All you really care about is supporting an agenda of your political party.  The hypocrisy here is over the top.