Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

And what I am thinking is that in the 1880's eastern newspapers were writing romanticized accounts of the lawlessness out west, and Buffalo Bill could tour those eastern cities to sold out crowds.

But what were the Buffalo Bill shows? Not having ever seen one I have no idea but were they a lot of marksmanship and skill performances and not necessarily people shooting guns at each other? Not so mention - what % of the population ever saw a live show of any kind compared to the kind of reach that modern media has. There are probably more than 350 million TV in the US and there are probably eyeballs in front of 80 % every single night.

[Archie]

One thing I hope everyone has learned in this tragedy is you can't use the excuse that the police are there to protect you to take guns away.  Police officers are everyday people like we are and most aren't going to put their life on the line to save you or your family.  This isn't the first time police have not responded.  The officer at Parkland didn't or wouldn't go in the school either during the shooting.  If the shit hits the fan you are on your own.  Its better to be prepared.

[Hongbit]

16 minutes ago, Archie said:

One thing I hope everyone has learned in this tragedy is you can't use the excuse that the police are there to protect you to take guns away.  Police officers are everyday people like we are and most aren't going to put their life on the line to save you or your family.  This isn't the first time police have not responded.  The officer at Parkland didn't or wouldn't go in the school either during the shooting.  If the shit hits the fan you are on your own.  Its better to be prepared.

Handguns are what you use to protect yourself and family.    Nobody is taking these away.  

AR-15’s and other similar guns have no practical use by civilians and at this point serve no purpose in our society.   

[Jim Cowan]

33 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

But what were the Buffalo Bill shows? Not having ever seen one I have no idea but were they a lot of marksmanship and skill performances and not necessarily people shooting guns at each other? Not so mention - what % of the population ever saw a live show of any kind compared to the kind of reach that modern media has. There are probably more than 350 million TV in the US and there are probably eyeballs in front of 80 % every single night.

I think that Hollywood caters to a culture that already exists, rather than creating it.  Playing GTA does not create a culture that glorifies violence, nor does watching Elmer shoot Daffy in the face with both barrels.  Those things are marketed to a culture that already exists.

[Tiger337]

20 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Handguns are what you use to protect yourself and family.    Nobody is taking these away.  

AR-15’s and other similar guns have no practical use by civilians and at this point serve no purpose in our society.   

You are going to be lectured about how you don't understand what an AR-15 is and thus have no business stating an opinion on gun policy.  

[Tiger337]

41 minutes ago, Archie said:

One thing I hope everyone has learned in this tragedy is you can't use the excuse that the police are there to protect you to take guns away.  Police officers are everyday people like we are and most aren't going to put their life on the line to save you or your family.  This isn't the first time police have not responded.  The officer at Parkland didn't or wouldn't go in the school either during the shooting.  If the shit hits the fan you are on your own.  Its better to be prepared.

There is no way you can be prepared for something like this.  It happens suddenly and escalates quickly.  No matter how cool you think you are, you can't predict how you would react in such a crisis.  Even the professionals make mistakes.  

[gehringer_2]

26 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Handguns are what you use to protect yourself and family.    Nobody is taking these away.  

AR-15’s and other similar guns have no practical use by civilians and at this point serve no purpose in our society.   

there are two problems - mass death weapons and too many handgun. The former need to go away, the qualifications for possessing the later need to be much tighter.

handguns are not even all that useful for protecting a home either because in any home with children they need to be locked up and your average home invader is not going to politely stand aside while you wake yourself up and arm yourself. And in any home where they are not locked up the probabilities appear high they are more likely to kill a member of the household than an invader.

Edited May 28, 2022 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

There is no way you can be prepared for something like this.  It happens suddenly and escalates quickly.  No matter how cool you think you are, you can't predict how you would react in such a crisis.  Even the professionals make mistakes.  

right. It seems it's pointless to keep repeating the truth that in any tactical situation, initiative is everything. The perp has it, you don't and never will unless you are going to spend your life standing guard in a pillbox at your front door (in which case the perp will use the back....)

[gehringer_2]

36 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I think that Hollywood caters to a culture that already exists, rather than creating it.  Playing GTA does not create a culture that glorifies violence, nor does watching Elmer shoot Daffy in the face with both barrels.  Those things are marketed to a culture that already exists.

Look at this thread for instance. I think any person willing to look at the facts and evidence objectively should easily come to the conclusion that you are far less safe with a gun in your house (unless it is locked away safely in a gun case) than with one, and thus that idea you are going to save the day in a home invasion is pretty far fetched. Can it happen?  Sure. Does it happen? Hundreds of times less than someone in the house is harmed by the gun.

So what leads to the inability of Americans to process the objective facts of the situation? I guess it beats me.

I suppose they don't do a very good job of assessing the facts of a dozen other social/political/economic conditions, so why do I bother asking the question?

Edited May 28, 2022 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

One thing I hope everyone has learned in this tragedy is you can't use the excuse that the police are there to protect you to take guns away.  Police officers are everyday people like we are and most aren't going to put their life on the line to save you or your family.  This isn't the first time police have not responded.  The officer at Parkland didn't or wouldn't go in the school either during the shooting.  If the shit hits the fan you are on your own.  Its better to be prepared.

How are fourth graders to be prepared when someone comes in and locks the door and starts shooting?  What is “prepared” in that scenario. 
 

I don’t want to live in the world you think is required to prepare for this. That’s not normal. 

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

I don’t want to live in the world you think is required to prepare for this. That’s not normal. 

This. Exactly this. Why should we spend our lives in an armed camp - that's an insane idea of how to live - when it's so much more logical, reasonable, effective, to just remove the instrumentality that creates all this danger in the first place - and serves no other purpose? The guns.

[Hongbit]

35 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

there are two problems - mass death weapons and too many handgun. The former need to go away, the qualifications for possessing the later need to be much tighter.

handguns are not even all that useful for protecting a home either because in any home with children they need to be locked up and your average home invader is not going to politely stand aside while you wake yourself up and arm yourself. And in any home where they are not locked up the probabilities appear high they are more likely to kill a member of the household than an invader..   

 

We’ve reached a point of how to stop mass shootings is it’s own stand alone issue and not just part of the gun control debate.     We need to figure out how to make it much more difficult for someone to commit a mass shooting without getting tripped up by the same old NRA taking points.  

[oblong]

Think about it. Until the moment the guy started shooting people… in Texas and to gun nuts everything was ok. “Oh Look a guy in body armor with an AR 15 out in public. Totally cool. Don’t bother him. He’s probably a patriot”. 

[The Ronz]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

One thing I hope everyone has learned in this tragedy is you can't use the excuse that the police are there to protect you to take guns away.  Police officers are everyday people like we are and most aren't going to put their life on the line to save you or your family. 

I thought you told us the police were trained to protect the public. So now they aren't? When did this change?

On 12/3/2021 at 8:30 AM, Archie said:

The officer has a duty to protect the public and him or herself. 

They are trained to remove the threat and fire multiple times. 

[Archie]

9 minutes ago, The Ronz said:

I thought you told us the police were trained to protect the public. So now they aren't? When did this change?

I am having a change of heart after hearing about the cluster F that happened in that school with the police and seeing the parents standing outside helpless.  Some police are trained better than others but when it comes time to do the job some of them aren't up to it. 

The example here should be the father who is the border patrol agent. He borrowed his barber's shotgun and went into the school looking for his child and helping other kids.  He did what he had to do as a parent while the police were doing god knows what.  As I said in my last post...when the shit hits the fan you are on your own and you should know what to do and have the tools to do it.  You have a choice...be like the guy who went in to get his child or sit and wait with the other parents.  If my child or family is in danger I wouldn't be waiting helplessly.

[Tiger337]

50 minutes ago, Archie said:

I am having a change of heart after hearing about the cluster F that happened in that school with the police and seeing the parents standing outside helpless.  Some police are trained better than others but when it comes time to do the job some of them aren't up to it. 

The example here should be the father who is the border patrol agent. He borrowed his barber's shotgun and went into the school looking for his child and helping other kids.  He did what he had to do as a parent while the police were doing god knows what.  As I said in my last post...when the shit hits the fan you are on your own and you should know what to do and have the tools to do it.  You have a choice...be like the guy who went in to get his child or sit and wait with the other parents.  If my child or family is in danger I wouldn't be waiting helplessly.

What if someone thinks the cops don't have a situation under control when they really do and then puts lives in danger by interfering?  That seems like a more likely outcome than some wannabe cowboy rushing in and saving everyone because the police messed up.  

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

 

We’ve reached a point of how to stop mass shootings is it’s own stand alone issue and not just part of the gun control debate.     We need to figure out how to make it much more difficult for someone to commit a mass shooting without getting tripped up by the same old NRA taking points.  

I’d be glad to take that half a loaf if we can get it. 

[Motor City Sonics]

A lifelong gun owner and Marine from Oregon named Ben Beers had turned in his AR-15 and handgun to the local police to have them destroyed.    This is an act of courage.  He's going against something he believed in his whole life because he couldn't justify it anymore.  This is very brave because by going public he's probably going to be attacked now and I would imagine some of those attacks will include death threats.        Talk about patriotism,  doing something like this for your country because you know your country can be better.    I'll raise a glass or two to Mr. Beers tonight.    (The article calls him an ex-Marine.....is there such a thing?). 

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oregon-man-tiktok-destroys-guns_n_6291cf7be4b0cda85dbf009f

[Kacie]

3 hours ago, Archie said:

One thing I hope everyone has learned in this tragedy is you can't use the excuse that the police are there to protect you to take guns away.  Police officers are everyday people like we are and most aren't going to put their life on the line to save you or your family.  This isn't the first time police have not responded.  The officer at Parkland didn't or wouldn't go in the school either during the shooting.  If the shit hits the fan you are on your own.  Its better to be prepared.

That's bullshit...how convenient of you to forget the brave African American security guard who was probably being paid $12/hr give his life to protect shoppers he didn't know in Buffalo...plenty of brave folks out there. Remember all the first responders who died on 9/11? The Uvalde police force are cowardly pussies. Probably couldn't be bothered to save a bunch of brown kids. if 19 of them were afraid of one teenager with a gun, maybe that should tell you something.  Now they need security to protect themselves? Seriously, fuck them. 

Plenty of us healthcare workers put our lives on the line day after day and had to try and save assholes who insisted they didn't have Covid or that it was a hoax and not only had to worry about contracting the virus, but had to fear for our safety from all gun wielding Trumpturd assholes.  

[CMRivdogs]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

handguns are not even all that useful for protecting a home either because in any home with children they need to be locked up and your average home invader is not going to politely stand aside while you wake yourself up and arm yourself. And in any home where they are not locked up the probabilities appear high they are more likely to kill a member of the household than an invader.

Let's take it one step further. Unless one is proficient in using a gun and is accurate, the weapon is still virtually useless. Even if one has hours of training and hours at a range, the body chemistry changes once something like an intruder enters the picture.

Add the addition of adrenalin to the scenario which will probably make you fumble with locks, ammunition and so forth, you're more likely to become a victim rather than a hero.

Most people would be better off stocking their pantry with cans to throw at an intruder than buying a gun.

[Archie]

42 minutes ago, Kacie said:

That's bullshit...how convenient of you to forget the brave African American security guard who was probably being paid $12/hr give his life to protect shoppers he didn't know in Buffalo...plenty of brave folks out there. Remember all the first responders who died on 9/11? The Uvalde police force are cowardly pussies. Probably couldn't be bothered to save a bunch of brown kids. if 19 of them were afraid of one teenager with a gun, maybe that should tell you something.  Now they need security to protect themselves? Seriously, fuck them. 

Plenty of us healthcare workers put our lives on the line day after day and had to try and save assholes who insisted they didn't have Covid or that it was a hoax and not only had to worry about contracting the virus, but had to fear for our safety from all gun wielding Trumpturd assholes.  

I'm not racist so race doesn't factor in for me.  

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Hongbit said:

 

We’ve reached a point of how to stop mass shootings is it’s own stand alone issue and not just part of the gun control debate.     We need to figure out how to make it much more difficult for someone to commit a mass shooting without getting tripped up by the same old NRA taking points.  

but of course the tie-in is that I doubt you can establish a legal control regime over assault weapons that doesn't also increase the legislative prerogatives on other guns - so even if there is no explicit intention to widen control of handguns in a program to control assault weapons, it's going to be seen as 'the camel's nose' and opposed by the whole gun crowd.

[Hongbit]

29 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

but of course the tie-in is that I doubt you can establish a legal control regime over assault weapons that doesn't also increase the legislative prerogatives on other guns - so even if there is no explicit intention to widen control of handguns in a program to control assault weapons, it's going to be seen as 'the camel's nose' and opposed by the whole gun crowd.

An AR-15 has one real use for civilian gun owners.  It’s a recreational weapon that most gun owners enjoy shooting at a range or open space.  It is not a hunting weapon and isn’t very practical as a home defense weapon.   Eliminating it wouldn’t really be that big a deal. It’s recreational.     As you alluded, the problem is the NRA continues to hold the line with the slippery slope argument of first the government will come for the semi-automatics and then they will come for the rest of the guns.  
 

It doesn’t have to be this way.  If we can find a way to draw the line and separate these guns from the rest then we have a chance to eliminate them.   That’s why I think it’s so important to delineate between controls to stop mass shootings and traditional gun control measures aimed at handguns.  

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Hongbit

[mtutiger]

 

[Edman85]

15 hours ago, oblong said:

Think about it. Until the moment the guy started shooting people… in Texas and to gun nuts everything was ok. “Oh Look a guy in body armor with an AR 15 out in public. Totally cool. Don’t bother him. He’s probably a patriot”. 

Ding ding ding ding