2023 MLB (non-Tigers) catch all thread

[chasfh]

25 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Im not familiar with the area but I was always under the impression that the main blame for attendance was not just the park itself but being located in St. Pete instead of Tampa.

If that is indeed the case I don't know that a new stadium is going to help all that much outside of maybe the first year or two until the novelty wears off. 

 

 

So much for the Rays moving to Montreal, I guess.

I found it interesting when, last week I think, Oakland was being talked up along with Nashville as the next logical expansion franchise! I mean, I get why they would prefer to move the A's to Vegas and do the Oakland expansion team, rather than keep Oakland and expand to Vegas, because it's a humongous windfall for a guy who's already in the club. But SFO is not a top four market along with NYC, LA, and Chicago. It's a #10 market, which means it is smaller than two other former two-team DMAs, Philly and Boston. I get that Oakland has an MLB history (as does Montreal, FWTW), but fewer people in a market generally means less media revenue for both teams there, and especially the Oakland subregion which, with only 1/3 the population of the whole SFO DMA, is slightly smaller than Milwaukee, the current smallest MLB DMA.

In any event, I would bet the San Francisco Giants ownership will have a lot to say about whether there should an expansion team plopped into their DMA.

[Biff Mayhem]

While I would love to see another Expos team, selfishly I don't want to have one there because it's fun to see the knowing nods and hear comments from old school fans when they see me sporting my Expos hat.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

Im not familiar with the area but I was always under the impression that the main blame for attendance was not just the park itself but being located in St. Pete instead of Tampa.

If that is indeed the case I don't know that a new stadium is going to help all that much outside of maybe the first year or two until the novelty wears off. 

 

 

I get the impression TPTB in Tampa aren't particularly interested in getting the team to their side of the bay. But there are nearly a million people living West of the Bay. If they pick a location that splits the difference between St.  Pete and Clearwater they should be able to sell 30K, which is a small ballpark. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

So much for the Rays moving to Montreal, I guess.

I found it interesting when, last week I think, Oakland was being talked up along with Nashville as the next logical expansion franchise! I mean, I get why they would prefer to move the A's to Vegas and do the Oakland expansion team, rather than keep Oakland and expand to Vegas, because it's a humongous windfall for a guy who's already in the club. But SFO is not a top four market along with NYC, LA, and Chicago. It's a #10 market, which means it is smaller than two other former two-team DMAs, Philly and Boston. I get that Oakland has an MLB history (as does Montreal, FWTW), but fewer people in a market generally means less media revenue for both teams there, and especially the Oakland subregion which, with only 1/3 the population of the whole SFO DMA, is slightly smaller than Milwaukee, the current smallest MLB DMA.

In any event, I would bet the San Francisco Giants ownership will have a lot to say about whether there should an expansion team plopped into their DMA.

If you were going to add a team in the Bay area, wouldn't you go to somewhere on the south end like San Jose?

[CMRivdogs]

Some of the reasoning I'm seeing for staying in St Petersburg is a larger tract of property, allowing the team/builders/community etc to build more than just a ballpark

https://cms5.revize.com/revize/stpete/Residents/Current Projects/Gas Plant/Hines Rays HGPD Presentation.pdf

These groups are looking for entertainment centers, housing, shopping, restaurants, hotels, etc.

I guess that wasn't available in Yorba City where I understand the alternative was to be located.

I don't know the area, but that's what I've read. My one trip there many years ago found the bridge between Tampa and St Pete a bit daunting. 

[CMRivdogs]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

If you were going to add a team in the Bay area, wouldn't you go to somewhere on the south end like San Jose?

I think San Francisco had claimed territorial rights to San Jose.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Biff Mayhem said:

While I would love to see another Expos team, selfishly I don't want to have one there because it's fun to see the knowing nods and hear comments from old school fans when they see me sporting my Expos hat.

The Pirates cap from the 70s works too.  

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I think San Francisco had claimed territorial rights to San Jose.

I'm sure they did, but one has to assume that claim is negotiable given enough $$. With the A's leaving, any expansion in the bay area will face some kind of objection from the Giants, which is probably why it will happen somewhere else.

Edited September 18, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tigeraholic1]

Tooting my local horn! If you have not had a chance to check it out, Parkview Field in Fort Wayne, IN (High-A San Diego Padres) is ranked best ballpark experience for the second year in a row. It really has the feel of a big league park with all the amenities you look for.  Tons of bars, resaurants and hotels within walking distants of park.  LMCU was ranked 17th out of 30 as well.

https://www.stadiumjourney.com/stadiums/stadium-journey-high-a-ballpark-rankings-2023

 

[Tiger337]

It seems like Nashville is the the most frequently mentioned location for an expansion team.  I am still holding out hope for a team in Montreal, but that appears unlikely. I think MLB forced them out of there for whatever reason.  I am not sure if anything has changed to make Montreal more palatable.  

[RandyMarsh]

I know it would be one of the smallest if no the smallest market in the league but I'm surprised you don't hear more about Oklahoma City being a potential location. Reason being is that they have strong baseball and softball programs in their universities so I presume there is alot of interest in the sport in the region, also the Thunder have had a strong fanbase since they moved there like 15 years ago.

I feel like that while being a small market it would be the type that has a larger percentage of the market caring about the sports team than a market that has a bunch of transplants or a ton of other entertainment options. 

[chasfh]

43 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It seems like Nashville is the the most frequently mentioned location for an expansion team.  I am still holding out hope for a team in Montreal, but that appears unlikely. I think MLB forced them out of there for whatever reason.  I am not sure if anything has changed to make Montreal more palatable.  

Lots of reasons Montreal got forced out of baseball: uncertainty created by fluctuating exchange rate; the worst stadium situation in baseball; weird local broadcast situation; small market size coupled with limited nationwide appeal potential across two countries; outlier with French language; and most of all, provincial and local governments totally unwilling to give them billions in tax dollars in breaks, abatements, and outright payoffs.

One other thing, and I heard this from a fan at Stade Olympique, so grain of salt applies here: it’s pretty well-accepted in Quebec that Bud Selig believed he had a birthright to receive an NL expansion franchise in 1969 for Milwaukee, but he lost out on it to Montreal, he had to accept an “inferior” AL team from Seattle as a consolation prize, he never forgave Montreal for any of that, and as a result, had a personal agenda to drive the city out of baseball for good. I don’t know if I believe it on its face, necessarily, but in my opinion, it falls well within the range of plausible.

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Lots of reasons Montreal got forced out of baseball: uncertainty created by fluctuating exchange rate; the worst stadium situation in baseball; weird local broadcast situation; small market size coupled with limited nationwide appeal potential across two countries; outlier with French language; and most of all, provincial and local governments totally unwilling to give them billions in tax dollars in breaks, abatements, and outright payoffs.

One other thing, and I heard this from a fan at Stade Olympique, so grain of salt applies here: it’s pretty well-accepted in Quebec that Bud Selig believed he had a birthright to receive an NL expansion franchise in 1969 for Milwaukee, but he lost out on it to Montreal, he had to accept an “inferior” AL team from Seattle as a consolation prize, he never forgave Montreal for any of that, and as a result, had a personal agenda to drive the city out of baseball for good. I don’t know if I believe it on its face, necessarily, but in my opinion, it falls well within the range of plausible.

I also wonder if the creation of the Blue Jays wasn't a death knell for the Expos. A francophone baseball team wasn't going to maintain enough market interest in Canada unless it was exclusive. Once they lost the overflow into the anglo Ontario market where most of the baseball interest in Canada probably existed, they were likely doomed long term no matter what they did.

Edited September 18, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

41 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Lots of reasons Montreal got forced out of baseball: uncertainty created by fluctuating exchange rate; the worst stadium situation in baseball; weird local broadcast situation; small market size coupled with limited nationwide appeal potential across two countries; outlier with French language; and most of all, provincial and local governments totally unwilling to give them billions in tax dollars in breaks, abatements, and outright payoffs.

One other thing, and I heard this from a fan at Stade Olympique, so grain of salt applies here: it’s pretty well-accepted in Quebec that Bud Selig believed he had a birthright to receive an NL expansion franchise in 1969 for Milwaukee, but he lost out on it to Montreal, he had to accept an “inferior” AL team from Seattle as a consolation prize, he never forgave Montreal for any of that, and as a result, had a personal agenda to drive the city out of baseball for good. I don’t know if I believe it on its face, necessarily, but in my opinion, it falls well within the range of plausible.

Montreal was not the ideal city, but they got pretty good attendance for three decades espcially when they played well which is something the Florida teams have not been able to achieve.  Everything when south when Loria took over the team and dumped all their star players and seemed to not care.  He was also reponsible for their "weird local broadcast situation".  My impression was that he was trying to destroy the team so he could get them out of there and MLB seemed happy to to go along with it.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

28 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Montreal was not the ideal city, but they got pretty good attendance for three decades espcially when they played well which is something the Florida teams have not been able to achieve.  Everything when south when Loria took over the team and dumped all their star players and seemed to not care.  He was also reponsible for their "weird local broadcast situation".  My impression was that he was trying to destroy the team so he could get them out of there and MLB seemed happy to to go along with it.

But wasn't it because Luria continued to put capital into the team when the other minority holders wouldn't that left him in complete control of the team? Yes, no doubt by the end he just wanted out of Montreal, but how much of that was because he had already gotten to the end of his rope with what he was dealing with there? Bronfman - probably a smarter financier than the rest of them, had already given up his hope of making it work and bailed. Most people (at least not named Musk) don't invest a lot of money on an asset with an initial intention to trash it.

Edited September 18, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

But wasn't it because Luria continued to put capital into the team when the other minority holders wouldn't that left him in complete control of the team? Yes, no doubt by the end he just wanted out of Montreal, but how much of that was because he had already gotten to the end of his rope with what he was dealing with there? Bronfman - probably a smarter financier than the rest of them, had already given up his hope of making it work and bailed. Most people (at least not named Musk) don't invest a lot of money on an asset with an initial intention to trash it.

The intention could have been to trash it and then move to a new city.  MLB doesn't like a lot of movement so one would have to prove that it wouldn't work.    

The thing is the franchise was working up until the mid 90s when they dumped all their stars and never really re-built again.  It's not like Tampa Bay which has never done well with attendance even when they are good.  

 

[gehringer_2]

14 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The intention could have been to trash it and then move to a new city.  MLB doesn't like a lot of movement so one would have to prove that it wouldn't work. 

Loria was only a 24% owner when he bought in so if he had plans to kill the team at that point he'd have had to persuade the rest of his partners.  He tried to get a new ball park. He put in more of his money when the other owners wouldn't until he ended up almost sole owner. When it was clear there would be no new ball park, he bailed. He only owned the team for 3 yrs. They were failing before he got there and but true enough he basically took anyone and anything he could carry when he sold the team to the league. It's probably true he soured on owning the team pretty quickly after he bought it and found he couldn't do much with it  - but remember he couldn't find any sources to work with. The province turned him down, local business wouldn't ante up and the the league even voted to contract his team out from under him, so at that point I would have some sympathy with him saying 'screw it'. And in the end the MLB could have tried to save the franchise once they ran it and didn't either so they weren't seeing any future either.

I don't mean to defend Loria per se, I don't know him from Adam, but I don't know if it's fair to lay the failure of the Expos at his feet in particular. He seemed to be a relatively bit player in their overall history. He was just the guy holding the bag at the end. I don't think one guy can kill a franchise's fan base and its regional market goodwill value in only 3 yrs. That failure had to have had a lot of contributors. I would guess the Montreal fans who blame Luria are a little like the people who never forgave the Tigers for leaving the old ballpark. They were a group that were loyal but too small to make what they wanted to preserve economically viable. Owners don't owe vestigial fan bases permanent economic subsidy.

[Tiger337]

I just looked it up and you are right that Loria came later than I thought.  So I don't know whose fault it was.  However, the franchise did well when they had good teams, so I don't think it's true that MLB can not work in Montral.  MLB seemed to be a lot more willing to let them move than other franchises.  They allowed Tampa Bay to flounder forever.  

Edited September 19, 2023 by Tiger337

[Edman85]

10 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Im not familiar with the area but I was always under the impression that the main blame for attendance was not just the park itself but being located in St. Pete instead of Tampa.

If that is indeed the case I don't know that a new stadium is going to help all that much outside of maybe the first year or two until the novelty wears off. 

 

 

Yeah, but they can sell more luxury suites, which is almost always the reason for stadium upgrades/new stadiums.

[gehringer_2]

43 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I just looked it up and you are right that Loria came later than I thought.  So I don't know whose fault it was.  However, the franchise did well when they had good teams, so I don't think it's true that MLB can not work in Montral.  MLB seemed to be a lot more willing to let them move than other franchises.  They allowed Tampa Bay to flounder forever.  

IDK - economics of the game have changed so much in 20 yrs it's hard to compare. There may be enough revenue sharing today that teams can more easily flounder for a long time without being in danger of actually going under. It must have been pretty dire in 2001 in comparison for them to actually take a vote on contraction. Those were some bad years for baseball in Detroit so I wasn't paying enough attention to remember it well.

Edited September 19, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

I never trust MLB owners when they talk about economics of the game!

[chasfh]

All of a sudden, Spencer Strider has an outside chance to win 20 games and get 300 strikeouts, and if he does, he’s winning the National League Cy Young out from under Justin Steele and Blake Snell, even if he’s not the actual best pitcher in the league.

[gehringer_2]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:40 PM, Tiger337 said:

I never trust MLB owners when they talk about economics of the game!

I hadn't remembered that they actually got to an owners vote on contraction. I remembered all the talk about it but not that they actually voted to boot the Expos and Twins. And the Twins won the division a year later!

[casimir]

23 minutes ago, chasfh said:

All of a sudden, Spencer Strider has an outside chance to win 20 games and get 300 strikeouts, and if he does, he’s winning the National League Cy Young out from under Justin Steele and Blake Snell, even if he’s not the actual best pitcher in the league.

Atlanta has 3 SPs that will toss 30 starts and around/over 170 IPs.  Must be nice.

But I think even more impressively, they've put together a roster of everyday position players.  They'll have 8 hitters with over 500 PAs (4 of whom will be over 600 PAs) and a catcher that will probably get to around 450 PAs.

[Tiger337]

Every Italian from New Jersey.