2023 Detroit Tigers Regular Season Discussion Thread

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, alex said:

Should the Tigers look at Estevan Florial, DFA, from the NYY?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/flories01.shtml?utm_medium=linker&utm_source=www.mlbtraderumors.com&utm_campaign=2023-04-01_br

They just brought in LHB McKinstry, Paulson and Witherspoon. None have the pedigree of Florial. That is 'not' to say Florial is the better player or they 'should' do this - but he is young (same exact age as RKreidler), has athleticism and tools (speed, power and arm, decent glove as well) and has had success at AAA.

He is out of options, but is not Arb eligible until '26. Would this be a calculated risk' worth taking? or do we have simply better options. He does have a swing and miss tendency but does also have the ability to draw some walks.

The NYY are always in a 'have to win now' mode and maybe initially brought up Florial too early, hence the scenario.

IMHO, this type of player could possibly do well in Comerica Park (reminds me of Granderson early on). I also think Vidal Brujan, back in the minors with Tampa, might be a good fit for the Tigers/park as well (we'll see on McKinstry though... ).

 

Why not?  He had a good season at AAA last season.  This may have been what you were getting to with the Granderson comparison, but it looks like he has some speed on the bases, too.  Can he field well?  It looks like most of his time has been spent in CF.  I know Carpenter is a bit of a favorite for some around here, but the big league roster isn't a place for his glove right now with Cabrera also on the roster.

[Tigermojo]

Uceta claimed by the Pirates.

[Wockenfussy]

We have so much to complain about regarding the team, yet so many are complaining about the outfield wall. I think we need to redirect resources. 🙂

[Tigermojo]

Rogers           Sands

Kreidler          Lipcius

Malloy            Maton

McKinstry      Nevin

Perez              Short

Torkelson       Baddoo 

Carpenter       Greene 

P. Meadows    Vierling 

16 position players who are still question marks. It's going to be painful but they really need to figure out where they fit. After 2023, they will all still have 4+ years of control left. If they crash and burn, then what?

 

[mtutiger]

Putting this in this particular thread over the game thread given that the discussion has turned toward bigger picture. We all agree that the first three games were unacceptable, that much I think we can acknowledge. But one big question I see regarding this team going forward, and perhaps where there is disagreement, and with the caveat being that we are only through three games against a very good opponent, is how much of what we saw in St. Petersburg is cultural and how much of it is talent, or if it's a mix of both to varying degrees.

PECOTA had this team at 66 wins, Fangraphs had them at 71 wins. An average of the two seems reasonable on paper for the talent they have - this isn't the 2003 Detroit Tigers that was trotting out Gene Kingsale and Nate Cornejo and the like, so no, I don't see them competing with them. So I see there being cultural and mental issues facing this team on top of whatever issues with talent they have. You would think that is fixable, particularly bringing better approaches to the plate, but IDK. And that also raises questions about coaching as well.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[bobrob2004]

I think this will be the last season for Hinch as Tigers manager.  They already replaced Avila and several coaches.  The next logical replacement is the manager.  Plus, I think Harris will want to be involved in getting the guy to lead his team and not someone else's leftover.  I know it's only three games and one series, but Hinch didn't show me anything on why he should be the one to lead this team.  Although I wasn't a big fan of Hinch to begin with.  

[gehringer_2]

29 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

I think this will be the last season for Hinch as Tigers manager.  They already replaced Avila and several coaches.  The next logical replacement is the manager.  Plus, I think Harris will want to be involved in getting the guy to lead his team and not someone else's leftover.  I know it's only three games and one series, but Hinch didn't show me anything on why he should be the one to lead this team.  Although I wasn't a big fan of Hinch to begin with.  

I like Hinch is some aspects - I think he has been great with the bullpen. I think he has squeezed a lot of performance out of a lot of marginal pitchers out there. OTOH, I simply can't escape the feeling that there is something in his approach to managing that negatively affects this team's offense. Yeah - it's all shadows and innuendo but it too many things keep pointing in the same direction  - for instance - the team offense was pretty good in ST, sure it's ST but a lot guys were looking relaxed and ready to go at the plate - and the season starts and it's like switch flipped. But what was something I remember Hinch saying?: It was more or less "We don't do a lot of preparation  for ST games, but when the seasons starts we'll be much more in depth" 

I hope they wake up and look good once they are away from the TB pitching staff and I can persuade myself I am wrong.

Edited April 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

My comment really wasn't meant to say that AJ should be on the hot seat or anything but rather that the Tigers problems, as a whole, have as much or more to do with deep-seated cultural and organizational issues than they do purely on talent imo. And that's where the new regime needs to be given more time, signing free agents cannot fix flaws in the culture of an organization.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

I think they lack talent and are loaded with question marks.  If anything, I might argue that the organization has gotten a lot out of their pitching staff, especially the bullpen, the last two years. 

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

I think they lack talent and are loaded with question marks.  If anything, I might argue that the organization has gotten a lot out of their pitching staff, especially the bullpen, the last two years. 

Pitching is definitely the exception.... I guess I'm talking more about the hitting.

[Edman85]

Set a reminder to go back in June and remember which Rays pitchers shut the Tigers down. McClanahan, we know is a dude. Springs' 2022 was overlooked and all reports from the spring suggest he could be elite this year. And Eflin is way too unheralded for his track record, and joined a team that can unlock something further.

Good chance we look back at that series and see the team ran into a buzz saw. I could be wrong, but I won't push the panic button until May or so.

[RatkoVarda]

46 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

I think this will be the last season for Hinch as Tigers manager.

maybe. three years of failure might be enough for him and the team. one thing is that the first 40 games are just brutal. if Hinch can survive that (and maybe he does not), maybe he makes it through the year. but neither Harris or Ilitch are going to fire themselves.

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Pitching is definitely the exception.... I guess I'm talking more about the hitting.

again, not to read too much into bad data sets, but if we just compare ST 22 to ST 23 there is some implication to believe this offense should perform better than last year's - which looked bad even in ST. So there is that. 

OK so McClanahan and Springs were on their game and Turnbull self-destructed. Write the series off. Still, longer term concerns already in view: I'm not liking Maton at 3rd, Carpenter has been much worse than I was hoping for in the OF. Veirling may be fast but he doesn't seem to be a good OF so far yet either. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tenacious D]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Set a reminder to go back in June and remember which Rays pitchers shut the Tigers down. McClanahan, we know is a dude. Springs' 2022 was overlooked and all reports from the spring suggest he could be elite this year. And Eflin is way too unheralded for his track record, and joined a team that can unlock something further.

Good chance we look back at that series and see the team ran into a buzz saw. I could be wrong, but I won't push the panic button until May or so.

I agree with this.  Unfortunate timing that we started with a very good TB team and now have to go to Houston.  

We’re ride or die fans—can you imagine the impact this start will have on the casual fan base?  Coupled with the bumpy economy and this could be an awful season for game attendance and TV ratings.

[Dan Gilmore]

ST provided a little bump in optimism for me, seeing PMeadows do well in particular, but not enough to expect the season to be fun to watch. Three games in I am not ready to declare it a disaster. My focus will be on whether they can determine if Malloy, Maton, Nevin, Kreidler, Carpenter maybe Baddoo, Ibanez or McKinstry are worth keeping around for the future. Ideally as valuable regulars, but even as platoon or utility players. Meanwhile watching Keith, Lipcius and Meadows in the minors. 
 

To the question of free agents, I was interested in Haniger too, but his injury history makes the three year contract a poor one to me. Maybe the Tigers will invest the Miggy $s in 2024 on a couple solid players (hopefully with only a small overpay in dollars and not in years). Knowing which, if any ,of the above mentioned parts are worthwhile future components would help knowing where to assign those dollars.

For 2023, watching Rogers instead of Barnhart, Carpenter at DH (Miggy not getting that many PAs for whatever reasons), seeing if AMeadows shows old form, does Tork progress, Greene get better-all those are enough to keep some level of interest for me. 

[Dan Gilmore]

I left Veiling off my list of “see how they do this year” guys. I made him my adoptee, so I can either support him unequivocally or assume he sucks, like most of my past AATs. 😶

[chasfh]

18 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Set a reminder to go back in June and remember which Rays pitchers shut the Tigers down. McClanahan, we know is a dude. Springs' 2022 was overlooked and all reports from the spring suggest he could be elite this year. And Eflin is way too unheralded for his track record, and joined a team that can unlock something further.

Good chance we look back at that series and see the team ran into a buzz saw. I could be wrong, but I won't push the panic button until May or so.

I may not push it even then. We have the roughest 40-game stretch to start the season of any team, and it's not going to let up until mid-May. We absolutely have to keep that in mind before, or at least while, we bury this team.

If they don't pick it up in the last two weeks of May, when they are playing weaker teams—if they are still struggling along at the same pace they (presumably will) start out the first six weeks at—then I might move toward the button.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, bobrob2004 said:

I think this will be the last season for Hinch as Tigers manager.  They already replaced Avila and several coaches.  The next logical replacement is the manager.  Plus, I think Harris will want to be involved in getting the guy to lead his team and not someone else's leftover.  I know it's only three games and one series, but Hinch didn't show me anything on why he should be the one to lead this team.  Although I wasn't a big fan of Hinch to begin with.  

I don't think Harris will dump Hinch as a leftover vestige of the failed system. After all, Hinch helped bring Harris aboard! And if Hinch were considered part of the Avila problem, he'd've gone out the door with Scott Coolbaugh and the others.

If this is Hinch's last year, it will be because he leaves of his own accord. At that point I might start panicking, because if the guy who helped bring the new PBO onboard, and who's agreed to punt on winning now to help remake the infrastructure down to the studs so we can win in the future, suddenly bails on the team because he decides it's going nowhere after all, then I'm gonna take his word for it, and I'll despair of my Tiger fandom for probably the rest of my life.

[bobrob2004]

9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't think Harris will dump Hinch as a leftover vestige of the failed system. After all, Hinch helped bring Harris aboard! And if Hinch were considered part of the Avila problem, he'd've gone out the door with Scott Coolbaugh and the others.

If this is Hinch's last year, it will be because he leaves of his own accord. At that point I might start panicking, because if the guy who helped bring the new PBO onboard, and who's agreed to punt on winning now to help remake the infrastructure down to the studs so we can win in the future, suddenly bails on the team because he decides it's going nowhere after all, then I'm gonna take his word for it, and I'll despair of my Tiger fandom for probably the rest of my life.

Is this really true or was it just all PR and the media telling the fans what they want to hear as opposed to what really happened?  

[chasfh]

Just now, bobrob2004 said:

Is this really true or was it just all PR and the media telling the fans what they want to hear as opposed to what really happened?  

What really happened?

[chasfh]

Here is the state of the 2023 Tigers three games in: the top story on the websites of the two major dailies is not about the team, but the ballpark food.

 

[bobrob2004]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

What really happened?

I don't know, I'm not behind closed doors.  I'm just questioning how much of an impact Hinch had in the hire of Harris.  

[mtutiger]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't think Harris will dump Hinch as a leftover vestige of the failed system. After all, Hinch helped bring Harris aboard! And if Hinch were considered part of the Avila problem, he'd've gone out the door with Scott Coolbaugh and the others.

If this is Hinch's last year, it will be because he leaves of his own accord. At that point I might start panicking, because if the guy who helped bring the new PBO onboard, and who's agreed to punt on winning now to help remake the infrastructure down to the studs so we can win in the future, suddenly bails on the team because he decides it's going nowhere after all, then I'm gonna take his word for it, and I'll despair of my Tiger fandom for probably the rest of my life.

Yeah, I'm with you in that I don't think AJ is leaving or that he'll be fired. I don't see any indication of friction between him or Harris.

[Toddwert]

you got wonder how much Hinchs multiple lineups and platooning might effect players getting consistent AB and getting into a groove  especially with younger guys

[chasfh]

14 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

I don't know, I'm not behind closed doors.  I'm just questioning how much of an impact Hinch had in the hire of Harris.  

That's fine, you can believe the media in your head versus the actual media and their journalism.