gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 30 minutes ago, oblong said: The TV broadcast is low on my wish list for this organization. I realize it's not an issue of resources used to fix that vs the players but.... I'm not watching much anyway. I have it on as filler or just check my phone while watching something else. I hope they don't wait for the team to be better first. A fan who hears some buzz about an improved team is going to tune into a game before they ever buy a ticket or a jersey and if they hear Shep and Monroe and turn it right back off........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: Al Avila also pieced them together largely without free agency - Chafin was the exception rather than the norm, and really a likely reason that happened was because they he felt he was at the periphery of contention. Which kinda drives the point home - in order for this team to have more success in the free agent market, they are going to have to have a better story to sell players on. You could sort of see it in 2022 given how they played during most of 2021. You can't see that now at all. Their relative success in 2021 was largely luck. They were projected to be under 70 wins in 2022 and that's where they ended up. They, of course, had a lot of bad luck in 2022 and their true talent was probably somewhere between their 2021 and 2022 records. I do understand though that agents and players probably don't consider BP/FanGraphs type projections in their selection of teams and the team probably looked more attractive before 2022 than before 2023 even though the talent level was similar. Edited April 13, 2023 by Tiger337 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I hope they don't wait for the team to be better first. A fan who hears some buzz about an improved team is going to tune into a game before they ever buy a ticket or a jersey and if they hear Shep and Monroe and turn it right back off........ Dickerson and Maybin have also been talking about an improved team with a new approach and have been preaching patience. They are more intelligent and cautious about it, but I still think a lot of it is them trying to be positive and faithful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I hope they don't wait for the team to be better first. A fan who hears some buzz about an improved team is going to tune into a game before they ever buy a ticket or a jersey and if they hear Shep and Monroe and turn it right back off........ yeah that's true. I don't know the particular business arrangements to really suggest the Bally situation affects things. It could be a non issue but who knows. I'd think if the Tigers wanted a guy in there then it gets done. They will pay them somehow. I just don't know if they get paid by Bally's or the organization. I remember once reading that Ken Daniels for the Wings wasn't an employee of either FSD or the Wings but an independent contractor. I forgot the context but it was relevant to whatever story was happening, maybe a lockout or something like that. Who cuts his LLC or whatever the check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) Bad tigers teams could hide when the Wings and Pistons were deep into the playoffs. Now both franchises are still mired in rebuilds; The Tigers ineptitude can't be ignored. Edited April 13, 2023 by kdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 I think we are in great shape with Harris running the show despite the miserable start. Trading relief pitchers made sense and the return, in my opinion, was outstanding. Having said that I really thought we would add one solid piece from free agency last year. Maybe Illitch mandated a small budget "until Midges $$" is off the books. As for the bullpen in hindsight we should have added a couple low cost veterans but again Harris did state " we will develop at the MLB level" and "we have to give innings and AB's to developing players ". What makes the bullpen so bad besides losing Chafin-Fullmer-Jimenez and Soto is the Cisnereo gamble went bad and Will Vest fell off a cliff and Breiske got hurt. Thats seven receivers from lat years pen. As for offense losing Meadows and Baez continued exasperating hitting combined with Greene ( .697 OPS) and Torks (.606 OPS) very tepid start says it all. And if our two young Pillars of hope don't produce runs, not just hard hit rate , we are toast. We have no choice but to play it our with Greene-Tork-Maton-Verling-Rogers-Carpenter and Badoo and hope for improvement. They all should play everyday. Period. Fit in the rest around them. Cut Schoop , bench Miggy, and with play Kreidler or send him down to play. Its bad and may get worse but Harris will improve the team..quicker if Illitch opens the wallet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: We have no choice but to play it our with Greene-Tork-Maton-Verling-Rogers-Carpenter and Badoo and hope for improvement. They all should play everyday. Period. Fit in the rest around them. Cut Schoop , bench Miggy, and with play Kreidler or send him down to play. this is where I would be too. Again - all of Hinch's match-up/mix-up/optimize the lineup stuff is misplaced on this team. Play the guys that are the future every damn day. If you are going to lose at least lose giving your young guys most experience possible. Edited April 13, 2023 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: this is where I would be too. Again - all of Hinch's match-up/mix-up/optimize the lineup stuff is misplaced on this team. Play the guys that are the future every damn day. If you are going to lose at least lose giving your young guys most experience possible. yes currently it's not win today it's win the future. That's why you don't throw Winterger to the wolves and yes you can lose in the 8th or any inning but it's still better than the optics and emotion of a walk off loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) The Cabrera thing is about business. It's about getting some return on the terrible contract with ticket sales, etc. I don't see that he is getting benched unless he wants to go home. And he gets the money either way. Edited April 13, 2023 by kdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 5 hours ago, mtutiger said: True story: the first time I went to a Houston Astros game was in the summer of 2012. Sunday afternoon. They were horrific... paid attendance was a little over 7,000. Today? They are far and away the most popular thing in town. Winning cures a lot of ills... Remember when the Nielsen rating for their broadcasts was reported to be 0.0? Ah, those were the days … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: this is where I would be too. Again - all of Hinch's match-up/mix-up/optimize the lineup stuff is misplaced on this team. Play the guys that are the future every damn day. If you are going to lose at least lose giving your young guys most experience possible. Are every one of those guys considered the future? I know two of them are. You could make an argument for the third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, chasfh said: Are every one of those guys considered the future? I know two of them are. You could make an argument for the third. You could make an argument for all of them. At the very least, they all could have some trade value with some success in the next year or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: You could make an argument for all of them. At the very least, they all could have some trade value with some success in the next year or two. Maybe, but hardly any of them strikes me as having the kind of pedigree and track record that suggests they are building blocks for perennial contender. I could say two do for sure, and there are some fans who would like to run both of them down I-75 right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 16 minutes ago, chasfh said: Are every one of those guys considered the future? I know two of them are. You could make an argument for the third. Yes compared to the rest of the roster. Upgrades are always welcome but until then I think they have the most "potential" or grant you "hope" we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, chasfh said: Maybe, but hardly any of them strikes me as having the kind of pedigree and track record that suggests they are building blocks for perennial contender. I could say two do for sure, and there are some fans who would like to run both of them down I-75 right now. The first two better be building blocks or we are going to have a really long wait for our next contender. I think Maton is more like the others than he is like the first two. Edited April 13, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleMike Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 6 hours ago, alex said: Yes, we have gone over this a few times here... It may be more than trying to add 1-2 MLB FAs per say ex for the line-up, BP, etc. to be more respectable. There are going to be injuries and if you have nothing but AA players filling in for AAAA types you are asking for trouble, so there is the idea of depth. Then, the 'potential' building blocks (Greene, Tork, etc.) need some pressure taken off them. If not it just continues - yet, that is why we have AMeadows, Baez, Schoop, Haase and Miggy. With said Baez & Haase have been very slow so far. Schoop has given indications now for over a year of less production... Miggy, as you said, is a shell of his past self - but can still hit a bit at times. Meadows gave indications of his struggles last year (best to him and his family as health is first and hopefully he can come back even if sporadic, and contribute, but he may need time at AAA). The other thought is perpetual losing builds a psyche that can snowball. I feel that happened with some of the last group (Castro's, Reyes, Goodrum, JJones, Candy, etc. - that and the talent base of course). Do a couple FAs solve this - IMHO, of course not. The players also have to choose - if they want to come here as well - and I still feel we tried on a couple, but 'no go'. We can hope we still get some production from the list mentioned and that would be more than what has gone on so far - (ex Schoop, Baez, Haaase, etc.). Sooner or later they will have to add another 'guy' or two. Some of the Minnesota players, so I read somewhere, said CCorrea changes the attitude in the clubhouse to expect more, to win - of course where did they finish last year? and the oppo is look at what Cleveland did, one of the youngest teams in the game, but they are fundamentally very sound. I like Vierling, but that 'no' slide into second base was inexcusable. He had that base stolen with Maton at the plate. Haase running on a ground ball right in front of him, taking him out of scoring position - again no excuse. These things have to change. Maybe 1 or so every 4-5 games - but 2 in 3 innings? I, like many here feel, they are a bit better than what has been seen thus far - but they have to 'play' the game smarter (manager included) and some need to step it up. Go Tigs... Toronto had a couple of brainfarts on the bases as well. That kind of stuff fires of fans, but in the big picture it only marginally affects overall results. You can't "focus on fundamentals" your way to respectability, not at the MLB level. You need better players with better talent. Some organizations are better than others at spotting it and developing it. Hopefully the Tigers are moving in that direction after cleansing the organization of Avila and his minions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) One of the biggest problem with the Tigers lineup aside from the fact that they suck is that there really isn't any strong points to it or any sorta identity. Like it's not like they have a bunch of thumpers with low OBPs so you can play for the multi run HR, or a bunch of OBP guys where you can just work starting pitchers and try to keep the line moving or even speed guys where you can take the extra base, steal bases and just wreak havoc on them. Nope they have a bunch of players that don't really have any standout skills. Edited April 13, 2023 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: The first two better be building blocks or we are going to have a really long wait for our next contender. I think Maton is more like the others than he is like the first two. If Maton is not a building block then Harris didn't make a very good trade. You have to get back Major leaguers - or at least eventual major leaguers, when you give up major leaguers. Edited April 13, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: If Maton is not a building block then Harris didn't make a very good trade. You have to get back Major leaguers - or at least eventual major leaguers, when you give up major leaguers. Harris clearly thinks that Maton and Vierling are major leaguers. Others here may disagree, but I think it was a good trade for a volatile reliever who wasn't likely going to be around on the next good Tiger team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 I still like all the players that he acquired, a lot more than the players they replaced. Acquiring a couple of relievers would have been good too but they are very unpredictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 My biggest qualms isn't so much what Harris did or didn't do it just goes back to how crappy our system is. I mean we should have atleast a couple arms somewhere in the system that can be major league caliber relievers with major league caliber stuff. You shouldn't have to rely on guys like Jose Cisnero and Trey Wingenter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Maton didn’t look like a major leaguer last week and he sure as hell does this week. Vierling has looked pretty good so far but I suspect he’s going to start seeing a lot less fastballs especially on the first pitch. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 3 hours ago, mtutiger said: Harris clearly thinks that Maton and Vierling are major leaguers. Others here may disagree, but I think it was a good trade for a volatile reliever who wasn't likely going to be around on the next good Tiger team It was a good trade. I don't think Maton and Vierling have a high probability of becoming starters on a contending team, but they have a better chance of contributing to a contending team (starting or otherwise) in the future than what they gave up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: If Maton is not a building block then Harris didn't make a very good trade. You have to get back Major leaguers - or at least eventual major leaguers, when you give up major leaguers. I think that Maton and Viering are major leaguers. Whether or not they will be starters on a contending team is the question. It's a good trade if you think they have a better chance of being building blocks on a contender than Soto. I think they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 37 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I think that Maton and Viering are major leaguers. Whether or not they will be starters on a contending team is the question. It's a good trade if you think they have a better chance of being building blocks on a contender than Soto. I think they do. The statement was contingent - I'm not saying Maton doesn't justify the trade, only that he needs to. I think he's looked pretty decent so far. I'm less impressed with Vierling in the field, but if he hits well that is going to be forgiven to some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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