2023 Detroit Tigers Regular Season Discussion Thread

[Edman85]

32 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

wait - take back the 'nothing', because you also leave yourself in a position be neutered by the 2nd pitching change.

Granted, this literally just happened...

But you take the platoon certainty the first 2-3 times through the lineup over the possibility of being exposed.

And Greene's injury messed things up today.

[gehringer_2]

14 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

The Tigers are late to the heavy platoon party (and Sparky was early to it). Get used to it. The days of the same 9 guys starting a majority of games are over.

Sparky also had 15 position players on his roster. Be nice to see that again but I'm not holding my breath.

[gehringer_2]

53 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Granted, this literally just happened...

But you take the platoon certainty the first 2-3 times through the lineup over the possibility of being exposed.

And Greene's injury messed things up today.

so extending some idle speculations on platooning: When position rosters were 15 deep and teams could and did platoon more, what would the effect on pitching have been? On a first pass I would postulate that in relative terms it must have made the slider a less valuable pitch for pitchers since they probably had to face a lot more opposite side hitters. Could that be part of the increasing level of strain for ML pitchers over all? Wouldn't it be an odd irony if the increase in the numbers of pitchers carried on rosters actually was leading to worse health for pitchers overall because it encourages the use of more hard breaking balls by insuring that pitchers saw fewer opposite side hitters? And of course in recent years up until thise one, the rise of shifting had devalued traditional advantage of LH hitting even more.

Edited May 31, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

Is there any proof that giving players reps helps eliminate platoon splits?

And what is wrong with being a platoon player? That is the wave of the future as more and more data can be parsed. Put players in positions to succeed.

Platoons are great.  That's what I grew up with and it wasn't just Sparky Anderson.  Earl Weaver was famous for platoons too and it seems that many teams had a platoon or two going on.  It would work better if they expanded rosters while keeping the 13 pitcher requirement.  It is easier to platoon with 15 players than 13.  

Is their proof that giving players reps helps eliminate platoon splits?  Platoons aside, young players often get better with reps so it would stand to reason that some players could get better from the side of the plate that gives them trouble.  I imagine it's a coaching/scouting thing where an experienced eye is able to identify which ones can and can't overcome the splits.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

I would have been in favor of bringing up Parker instead of Marisnick, but if Riley goes on the DL, they might need both now.

[Scottwood]

On a team like Detroit, there's probably only going to be 3 or 4 guys that aren't platooned or in some rotation in the future under Harris.  As an example, look at how the Rays have historically moved their lineups around and use their players in platoons.  Baddoo/Vierling, in an actual platoon, would give above average overall production (counting offense, defense, baserunning) for a corner OF spot.

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Scottwood

[casimir]

3 hours ago, Scottwood said:

On a team like Detroit, there's probably only going to be 3 or 4 guys that aren't platooned or in some rotation in the future under Harris.  As an example, look at how the Rays have historically moved their lineups around and use their players in platoons.  Baddoo/Vierling, in an actual platoon, would give above average overall production (counting offense, defense, baserunning) for a corner OF spot.

 

Yes, so we're probably looking at Baez, Greene, Torkelson, and McKinstry as that quartet this season.  Hopefully Malloy can develop into one of those players for next season.

So now if Greene hits the IL, its probably Baddoo in CF.  He's had a pretty good rebound season at the plate.  The arm strength is what it is.  It's an opportunity for to play everyday, he'll get to show if he can indeed figure out LHP.  Maybe he hits lower in the lineup vs LHPs than RHPs, but that'd be fine.

[casimir]

15 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

The Tigers have been playing well, but they don't have the kind of roster that can overcome injuries.  Hopefully, the Rodriguez injury doesn't keep him out long.

The lack of rotation depth is up against it with this injury.  Its probably unreasonable to expect the entirety of the pitching staff to not take a step back for the time being.  The relief end is going to be counted on for more innings, and with limited resources that can pitch multiple innings with some kind of regularity, there's going to be only so much that Fetter/Nieves and crew can do with the current collection of healthy arms.

[RandyMarsh]

It would've been nice to have some more MLB ready prospects to call up but in our defense perhaps 6 of our 7 best starting pitchers are injured in Erod, Manning,  Skubal, Mize, Turnbull and Brieske.

Granted a couple of those were expected coming into the season but still its hard to make up for that many guys being out. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by RandyMarsh

[Motor City Sonics]

Riley got hurt?     

I see Jake's Career OBP is .281...........this doesn't really fit what they're going for, does it?  

 

Well, we got within 1 game of .500 and 1 game of first place.   I think that's as far as they get.  Here comes the nosedive. 

[Edman85]

8 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

I would have been in favor of bringing up Parker instead of Marisnick, but if Riley goes on the DL, they might need both now.

Parker bats left. Marisnick bats right. Vierling bats right.

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Just let Baddoo play everyday and/or let Rogers back on the field and you don't need to play anyone else in Vierling's place.

If you don’t mind Baddoo’s .217/.276/.245 line against LHP every day.

13 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

The reason is he hasn't hit them.  He is still young though, so it would good to see if he can figure them out.  Or have they given up already?    

They may already have figured out over the past three years that he can’t, which may be why Baddoo almost never goes out there against LHP today. (This is not my own conclusion or value judgment about him or the Tigers. I don’t know anything more about it than anyone else. This is merely a speculative statement.)

It’s possible they could force him out there time after time against lefties, take the short-term loss on production for some number of months or maybe even seasons, and he could eventually get to within, I don’t know, maybe 80 tOPS+ against LHP. He’s at 49 tOPS+ lifetime against LHP right now. Would you be willing to take that short-term loss for such a long-term outcome?

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Sparky also had 15 position players on his roster. Be nice to see that again but I'm not holding my breath.

Deaden the ball, stick with it, and we might eventually get back to 15 position players naturally.

[Archie]

9 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

I would have been in favor of bringing up Parker instead of Marisnick, but if Riley goes on the DL, they might need both now.

I agree. I would understand the move if Marisnick had a good track record but he doesn't.  Hinch needs to get over not letting lefties hit against lefties.  Putting Short in CF last night instead of Baddoo was not a smart move. Only way these guys will get better is more ABs against lefties. 

Carpenter should be back soon too. So who gets DFA or dropped from 40 man?

[KL2]

7 minutes ago, Archie said:

I agree. I would understand the move if Marisnick had a good track record but he doesn't.  Hinch needs to get over not letting lefties hit against lefties.  Putting Short in CF last night instead of Baddoo was not a smart move. Only way these guys will get better is more ABs against lefties. 

Carpenter should be back soon too. So who gets DFA or dropped from 40 man?

Ibanez

[gehringer_2]

36 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Would you be willing to take that short-term loss for such a long-term outcome?

Yes - for a couple of resasons. Baddoo has had such a tortuous development path that he still doesn't have enough history to make much in the way of hard judgments about it - i.e. he is still under 200 career AB against LHP. The other is that in his limited time playing semi-often against LHP in 21 he did walk a decent clip (~10%) and if a guy can manage the zone from that could be hint you might have something to work with, while in his weird truncated '22 his platoon split was actually negative - granted mostly because he wasn't hitting RHP either, but if a guy can get better against one, that certainly leaves the door open that he might against the other. Lastly -- if you look at his heat maps there isn't much inside/outside bias - in fact if anything he's a little better against the pitch away, so that's another hint he might have something to work with.

So yeah - it's an investment I would make.

Edited May 31, 2023 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yes - for a couple of resasons. Baddoo has had such a tortuous development path that he still doesn't have enough history to make much in the way of hard judgments about it - i.e. he is still under 200 career AB against LHP. The other is that in his limited time playing semi-often against LHP in 21 he did walk a decent clip (~10%) and if a guy can manage the zone from that could be hint you might have something to work with, while in his weird truncated '22 his platoon split was actually negative - granted mostly because he wasn't hitting RHP either, but if a guy can get better against one, that certainly leaves the door open that he might against the other. Lastly -- if you look at his heat maps there isn't much inside/outside bias - in fact if anything he's a little better against the pitch away, so that's another hint he might have something to work with.

So yeah - it's an investment I would make.

Co-sign.

Furthermore, he's having a bit of a successful rebound from last season.  Strikeouts are down.  Walks are up.  He's hitting the ball hard.  Reward that and see if he can manage to make hay vs LHPs.  Maybe he can't.  Or maybe its salvageable enough to where he can hit lower in the lineup vs LHPs and higher in the lineup vs RHPs.

And here's another thought.  If Greene does in fact need some IL time, move Baddoo up in the lineup.

[Tiger337]

6 hours ago, Scottwood said:

On a team like Detroit, there's probably only going to be 3 or 4 guys that aren't platooned or in some rotation in the future under Harris.  As an example, look at how the Rays have historically moved their lineups around and use their players in platoons.  Baddoo/Vierling, in an actual platoon, would give above average overall production (counting offense, defense, baserunning) for a corner OF spot.

 

The Rays have had remarkable success doing what they do with a limited payroll.  Have other teams had sustained success operating like them?  Do they operate that way to save money or because it works better than the traditional way? I'd love to see the Tigers manage their roster the Sparky way, but I am leery of them imitating the extreme model of the Rays.  

[chasfh]

21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yes - for a couple of resasons. Baddoo has had such a tortuous development path that he still doesn't have enough history to make much in the way of hard judgments about it - i.e. he is still under 200 career AB against LHP. The other is that in his limited time playing semi-often against LHP in 21 he did walk a decent clip (~10%) and if a guy can manage the zone from that could be hint you might have something to work with, while in his weird truncated '22 his platoon split was actually negative - granted mostly because he wasn't hitting RHP either, but if a guy can get better against one, that certainly leaves the door open that he might against the other. Lastly -- if you look at his heat maps there isn't much inside/outside bias - in fact if anything he's a little better against the pitch away, so that's another hint he might have something to work with.

So yeah - it's an investment I would make.

And that's fine, I could be on board with that. I'm asking only to gauge the level of pain you'd be willing to withstand to get to a point where Baddoo is only 20% worse against lefties than overall. Just let's all not whine a few weeks in when he's 1-for-18 with 11 strikeouts against LHP. If we're in to achieve that result, stay in all the way.

That said—the Tigers may already have come to the conclusion that hitting lefties is a lost cause for him, based on repeated attempts and analytics/Rapsodo-based evidence, and if that's the case, they might be more right about it than we are.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I'm asking only to gauge the level of pain you'd be willing to withstand to get to a point where Baddoo is only 20% worse against lefties than overall

in the context of a season where we are carrying Cabrera this can hardly be a serious concern can it?

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

And that's fine, I could be on board with that. I'm asking only to gauge the level of pain you'd be willing to withstand to get to a point where Baddoo is only 20% worse against lefties than overall. Just let's all not whine a few weeks in when he's 1-for-18 with 11 strikeouts against LHP. If we're in to achieve that result, stay in all the way.

That said—the Tigers may already have come to the conclusion that hitting lefties is a lost cause for him, based on repeated attempts and analytics/Rapsodo-based evidence, and if that's the case, they might be more right about it than we are.

I would be willing to take the loss on the plan for a period of time.  It is hard to go off track record with Baddoo, because he has had an unusual development path and may not have had a fair opportunity to learn to hit lefties.

I also am wiling to accept that, through analysis and scouting, they have already identified him as someone who is not likely to reduce his platoon split.  

[chasfh]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

in the context of a season where we are carrying Cabrera this can hardly be a serious concern can it?

OK, just asking.

[gehringer_2]

18 minutes ago, chasfh said:

OK, just asking.

It's a moot point because this management isn't going to do it. I'm finding their  approach oddly contradictory. OTOH, Harris comes in with a lot of talk about giving young guys room to develop, then they play these really strict platoons even in game situations where you could easily give the guy a chance to get in an opposite side AB in a low leverage situation. Yeah - I get the idea "get every guy in every game so everyone is on their toes."  I just don't see this as the same level of holy grail they apparently do that it has to override everything else. 

Then again, the extened loss of Riley and ERod is going to kneecap this team anyway. 

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It's a moot point because this management isn't going to do it. I'm finding their  approach oddly contradictory. OTOH, Harris comes in with a lot of talk about giving young guys room to develop, then they play these really strict platoons even in game situations where you could easily give the guy a chance to get in an opposite side AB in a low leverage situation. Yeah - I get the idea "get every guy in every game so everyone is on their toes."  I just don't see this as the same level of holy grail they apparently do that it has to override everything else. 

Then again, the extened loss of Riley and ERod is going to kneecap this team anyway. 

Maybe because they have already rigorously attempted to get Baddoo to hit lefties better and have determined that he simply can't do so. This is possible. Just because they're not playing him against lefties against our will doesn't mean they are simply being ignorantly obstinate.

It is also possible they are giving the entire issue short shrift and have prematurely concluded Baddoo can't lefites because they are indeed being ignorantly obstinate. I would regard that as being less likely.

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Maybe because they have already rigorously attempted to get Baddoo to hit lefties better and have determined that he simply can't do so. This is possible. Just because they're not playing him against lefties against our will doesn't mean they are simply being ignorantly obstinate.

It is also possible they are giving the entire issue short shrift and have prematurely concluded Baddoo can't lefites because they are indeed being ignorantly obstinate. I would regard that as being less likely.

or Hinch just wants to win every game he can without regard to development value because his cachet as a manager is rapidly taking on water running this team. I wouldn't find that unlikely at all.

>Maybe because they have already rigorously attempted to get Baddoo to hit lefties better and have determined that he simply can't do so

What is the evidence to support this conclusion? - Not being combative here - serious question.

Edited May 31, 2023 by gehringer_2