gehringer_2 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Toddwert said: But didn’t it most likely come from that come backer in the home opener…. Kind of a whiplash situation Not sure it matters. What matters is whether it leaves any permanent deficit that pitching then keeps aggravating. Not trying say there is anything here that may not be, just noting that neck is a more nerve-racking place for a fan to see a pitcher have an injury. Edited June 12, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roarintiger1 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 2 hours ago, IdahoBert said: Having been out of commission most of this year, I watched a game a while back and the stands were pretty full and C-Mo was talking about how great the clubhouse was and how the team really believed in itself and having heard this so many times before I thought we were right on the edge of it being like kittens shot by snipers and that’s what it’s become. I still love this team as much as I did when I was nine years old and my heart still beats for them in the same way, but this is really hard to endure. Many of us are right there with you Bert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: Turnbull has nowhere to go and the Tigers need pitching. I can't see whatever tiff they may have had trumping those realities. He'll be back as soon as he's fit. Edman points out the bigger risk, which is that you never want to hear a pitcher has a problem in his neck.... Just to clarify, when I state that I believe Spencer Turnbull has no role on the Detroit Tigers of the future, I am not saying dump him now. And I am definitely not implying that we should dump every player in our system who has no role on the next Tigers playoff team however many years from now. The Tigers are not going to be any good for the rest of this year nor probably next year, at minimum, but they still have to put a team on the field tonight. Not just because they are contractually obligated to, but because the Tigers major league team is still in the business of trying to win ballgames now, which is crucial to maintaining interest among their primary target market of people in the Detroit area who like sports for however long it takes for them to be good again. So they have to put guys on the field obtained for a reasonable price who have the best chance of giving them a chance to win today, irrespective of their potential for providing future contributions to our ball club. That means guys like Matthew Boyd, Michael Lorenzen, Chasen Shreve, Jose Cisnero, Tyler Alexander, Garret Hill, Eric Haase, Andy Ibanez, Jake Marisnick, even Jonathan Schoop—and yes, Spencer Turnbull—all have a place on the 2023 Tigers, even though not one of them will be on the 2026 Tigers, that team which at this point stands the best chance of making the playoffs. None of these guys are first-division regulars, and none of them have a real future in the game. And that's OK, because that's not what we need from them. We just need them to be on the field right now, trying to help us win this game, and keep the business of Tiger baseball going while the front office builds the organization behind the scenes, hopefully putting us in a position of never needing players like these ever again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 Looks like the Athletic laid a bunch of people off today and are going away from single team beats. Even if Cody survives, I have a feeling he'll be picking up coverage on other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 37 minutes ago, chasfh said: Just to clarify, when I state that I believe Spencer Turnbull has no role on the Detroit Tigers of the future, I am not saying dump him now. And I am definitely not implying that we should dump every player in our system who has no role on the next Tigers playoff team however many years from now. The Tigers are not going to be any good for the rest of this year nor probably next year, at minimum, but they still have to put a team on the field tonight. Not just because they are contractually obligated to, but because the Tigers major league team is still in the business of trying to win ballgames now, which is crucial to maintaining interest among their primary target market of people in the Detroit area who like sports for however long it takes for them to be good again. So they have to put guys on the field obtained for a reasonable price who have the best chance of giving them a chance to win today, irrespective of their potential for providing future contributions to our ball club. That means guys like Matthew Boyd, Michael Lorenzen, Chasen Shreve, Jose Cisnero, Tyler Alexander, Garret Hill, Eric Haase, Andy Ibanez, Jake Marisnick, even Jonathan Schoop—and yes, Spencer Turnbull—all have a place on the 2023 Tigers, even though not one of them will be on the 2026 Tigers, that team which at this point stands the best chance of making the playoffs. None of these guys are first-division regulars, and none of them have a real future in the game. And that's OK, because that's not what we need from them. We just need them to be on the field right now, trying to help us win this game, and keep the business of Tiger baseball going while the front office builds the organization behind the scenes, hopefully putting us in a position of never needing players like these ever again. i would quibble that they are in business of winning mlb games right now. The utter lack of urgency to try anything else on the major league roster screams tank acceptance. Maybe we improve when all of these guys get healthy. But the guy who promised 'young players will get opportunities' is letting Rome burn because they are out of options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, kdog said: i would quibble that they are in business of winning mlb games right now. The utter lack of urgency to try anything else on the major league roster screams tank acceptance. Maybe we improve when all of these guys get healthy. But the guy who promised 'young players will get opportunities' is letting Rome burn because they are out of options. For all of the hullaballoo about adding depth to Toledo, it sure hasn't manifested itself into much of anything in Detroit. Or Toledo, for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, kdog said: i would quibble that they are in business of winning mlb games right now. The utter lack of urgency to try anything else on the major league roster screams tank acceptance. Maybe we improve when all of these guys get healthy. But the guy who promised 'young players will get opportunities' is letting Rome burn because they are out of options. I don't believe they are tanking now, in the way it can be argued the Avila regime tanked for a few years. The team we have today is the by-product of the talent level available to us, both as left to us by the prior regime, and as put together by the current regime under the limitations inadvertently set by the prior regime. Given the change of the draft to a lottery system, there is far less certainty to obtain the 1-1 pick in the way that it could previously be "earned", so there's much less incentive to tank. There has been spirited discussion here about whether "tanking' even took place, i.e., whether the Tigers actively tried to lose under Al Avila to secure 1-1 picks in the draft. Absent any statements in the affirmative from Al and his front office team we can't know for sure, but there can be no debate that the Tigers fielded arguably the least-talented team in the majors for years, and which led to the losing that got us the high draft picks. I happen to believe it was by design, and that obtaining high draft picks was part of the calculation leading them to do it. But I do not believe the same thing is happening now as happened under Avila. I believe that they simply do not have the leverage to field a playoff-level team at this moment. They don't have the assets in the system because of botched drafting and development by the prior regime; they can't trade their way to a winner because they do not have the assets to make such trades; and impact All-Star-level free agents don't choose to go to teams that have no prayer of winning, despite money, which they also can get from contending teams. Most of all, I believe that the new regime is savvy enough to understand that given the state of our franchise and the assets within, now is not the time to make a full-court press toward winning now, that building the infrastructure to put us in a position to win more effectively is the main goal, and that ownership is on board with this plan. It sucks to realize that the losing is going to go on for a while longer, but I think we are finally pulling in a logical and right direction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 12, 2023 Author Share Posted June 12, 2023 Right. What moves would you expect the Tigers to have made for this org? Sign a bunch of free agents? That’s why we are stuck with Baez. You can’t criticize for not signing free agents then complain about his deal and the predicament it left them in. There isn’t a mythical store of players out there waiting to be purchased or traded for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) To be clear, I quibble with Harris just rolling the majority of the 2022 offense into 2023. During that process, Harris told anyone who would listen that vets wouldn't block young players. They are letting useless vets continue to play and do nothing. They're not even changing the argument right now. It's the same corpses(aside from Cabrera) who continue to get at-bats. The pitching is injury luck and lack of development. You can't do much about it. Edited June 13, 2023 by kdog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, chasfh said: They don't have the assets in the system because of botched drafting and development by the prior regime; they can't trade their way to a winner because they do not have the assets to make such trades; and impact All-Star-level free agents don't choose to go to teams that have no prayer of winning, despite money, which they also can get from contending teams. A little over 20 years ago, Dave Dombrowski uncorked his "you try and trade him" rant. Granted there are younger fans who don't remember that, but certainly almost everyone here remembers it one would imagine. I dont know that the situation now is as dire as it was in 2002, but it certainly isn't that much different either. They don't have a lot of tradable assets and, to the extent that free agency isn't all about $$$$$$$$$, it's one of the least marketable products going in the sport. Harris will get grief because it is part of the job, but I dont have a great understanding of how people can sit and complain about Avila set the Tigers behind by years and how they have no chance at competing until 2026, and yet complain about Harris not being in a "win-now" posture. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me Edited June 13, 2023 by mtutiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 7 hours ago, Edman85 said: Looks like the Athletic laid a bunch of people off today and are going away from single team beats. Even if Cody survives, I have a feeling he'll be picking up coverage on other teams. I didn't think the Athletic would keep growing. I got a subscription for a short time and there were some good articles here and there, but not enough for me to keep the subscription. I think most people would prefer to subscribe to a site with a narrow focus rather than a site that tries to cover everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 My anger is 93% Ilitch, 7% Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 There is a happy medium between win-now and what this is. Maybe it would be more palatable if they had healthy and productive young players. When they choose not to improve and then let the product die the first week of June, that screams indifference. It's visceral for me not necessarily logical. That's what a fan is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, kdog said: My anger is 93% Ilitch, 7% Harris. We aren't far enough removed from Avila for him to have 0% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, kdog said: When they choose not to improve and then let the product die the first week of June... I had assumed you declared the product dead back in April, tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Things were on the rise two weeks ago, then two starting pitchers and three outfielders went down and the team is in a tailspin. Jonathan Davis's opt out was... poorly timed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Jonathan Davis's opt out was... poorly timed. Surprised we aren't getting more "old friend" alerts on that front tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Only from the Hens beat... Anyways, one thing I want to credit the front office on... There were about 10 instances this offseason where I thought Zack Short was the odd man out, and they held onto him. It seems to be the right call, and I'm curious what they saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 17 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Only from the Hens beat... Anyways, one thing I want to credit the front office on... There were about 10 instances this offseason where I thought Zack Short was the odd man out, and they held onto him. It seems to be the right call, and I'm curious what they saw. maybe sometimes you just like a guy because he's not going to hurt you if you have to play him. Too many of the guys that have come through our roster recently haven't just been not good, they've been constant disasters waiting to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 42 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I didn't think the Athletic would keep growing. I got a subscription for a short time and there were some good articles here and there, but not enough for me to keep the subscription. I think most people would prefer to subscribe to a site with a narrow focus rather than a site that tries to cover everything. After they took it over, the NYT tried to get everyone to upgrade their subsription packages to include the Athletic, but IIRC it was a big $ bump and I mean honestly - is the NYT readership the prime demo for 'the Athletic'? So I assume that marketing effort has fallen short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: After they took it over, the NYT tried to get everyone to upgrade their subsription packages to include the Athletic, but IIRC it was a big $ bump and I mean honestly - is the NYT readership the prime demo for 'the Athletic'? So I assume that marketing effort has fallen short. The NYT has never been good at sports, so I would think their readers would not be the ideal demographic for the Athletic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 2 hours ago, kdog said: To be clear, I quibble with Harris just rolling the majority of the 2022 offense into 2023. During that process, Harris told anyone who would listen that vets wouldn't block young players. They are letting useless vets continue to play and do nothing. They're not even changing the argument right now. It's the same corpses(aside from Cabrera) who continue to get at-bats. The pitching is injury luck and lack of development. You can't do much about it. By useless vets, who do you mean? Obviously Miggy and Schoop—who else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Edman85 said: Only from the Hens beat... Anyways, one thing I want to credit the front office on... There were about 10 instances this offseason where I thought Zack Short was the odd man out, and they held onto him. It seems to be the right call, and I'm curious what they saw. Cody Stavenhagen was saying the same thing about Zack Short at the end of spring training. He thought Zack might get cut but we were hanging on to him, he thought, to swing a trade. Zack’s off to a nice little start, and he’s got good peripherals, too, which I like, but let’s talk again when he gets to 250 ABs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 43 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The NYT has never been good at sports, so I would think their readers would not be the ideal demographic for the Athletic. They must’ve had some research that told them it was a fit, but maybe it was based on only a few focus groups, who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Edman85 said: Only from the Hens beat... Anyways, one thing I want to credit the front office on... There were about 10 instances this offseason where I thought Zack Short was the odd man out, and they held onto him. It seems to be the right call, and I'm curious what they saw. I would guess that they liked his defense at a position where they didn't really have a replacement if anything happened to Baez. It's hard to believe they knew his first 70 at bats would be productive. Let's see how it works out in a larger sample size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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