2023 Detroit Tigers Regular Season Discussion Thread

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Yeah he is going to get lots and lots of rope, at least 2 years' worth.  It's like in football, the new GM never cuts his own draft picks, he cuts guys that his predecessor chose.

Even though it's still early for seasonal judgments, I'm fine with most of Harris' pickups. I like McKinstry, Vierling, Holton, Eglert, Ibanez. Maybe a lower grade coming  for Malloy if he's going to be limited to DH duty. Even in Maton's case, it probably wasn't his 1st choice to be put at 3B.

[Jim Cowan]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Even though it's still early for seasonal judgments, I'm fine with most of Harris' pickups. I like McKinstry, Vierling, Holton, Eglert, Ibanez. Maybe a lower grade coming  for Malloy if he's going to be limited to DH duty. Even in Maton's case, it probably wasn't his 1st choice to be put at 3B.

I agree, I will take that group of guys over the guys that Harris got rid of, all day.  

[SoCalTiger]

Anyone think Marisnick might stick in center with Greene moving to left where long term his arm plays better. Greene-Marisnick-Verling left to right is pretty good defensive outfield with at least major league average arms and good range.  Maybe platoon Badoo/Marisinick. Carpenter DH only. 

[casimir]

7 hours ago, Tigermojo said:

I don't think they would let any pitchers go besides Calvo and maybe Shreve. I think it will come down to who has options so Olson and White probably get sent back to Toledo.

Position players I wouldn't miss are Nevin, Schoop, Solak, Cabrera (highly unlikely) and Marisnick once Greene is back.

I'd like to think that Nevin and Schoop are at the top of the list for cuts.  Maybe Schoop signs a minor league deal elsewhere and does well enough to get a promotion this season.  There's just not enough time to resurrect his season enough to become tradeable.

Marisnick, maybe as well, but he's playing somewhat regularly right now.  Part of that is due to the lack of healthy CF options.  I suppose the Marisnick/Greene swap is an easy one to make.

As far as the pitching options go, there's no harm in moving healthy bodies down Toledo.  If the list that I am looking at is correct, Wentz is the only healthy 40 man pitcher in the minors right now.

Looks like 47 total on the 40 which includes 8 on the 60 day IL.  So there is one spot of wiggle room to work with for guys returning from the 60.  But that's before the fun of minor league options.

[casimir]

6 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Anyone think Marisnick might stick in center with Greene moving to left where long term his arm plays better. Greene-Marisnick-Verling left to right is pretty good defensive outfield with at least major league average arms and good range.  Maybe platoon Badoo/Marisinick. Carpenter DH only. 

I doubt Marisnick pushes Greene to a corner.  It would seem like once he is healthy, he is back to the everyday CF role.  He was playing well enough to retain the job.  And then Vierling and Baddoo as backup CF options.

Marisnick is probably going to lose out to the 40 man roster crunch, too.  Its not just the active 26 that he is going to be a victim of, but the lack of minor league options, too.  Who knows, its the all star break already, he might decide to stick with the organization for the rest of the season if he is offered a spot in Toledo after release.

[Edman85]

A lot to unpack on the last few posts...

 

7 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Anyone think Marisnick might stick in center with Greene moving to left where long term his arm plays better. Greene-Marisnick-Verling left to right is pretty good defensive outfield with at least major league average arms and good range.  Maybe platoon Badoo/Marisinick. Carpenter DH only. 

No. Marisnick is not the type of player who moves your cornerstone player to another position. He's a guy you bring in when you have three outfielders get hurt in the span of a week and dispose when they get back. If Carpenter is DH only, then where does the 30 million dollar albatross play? And do you bench one of  your best hitters in such a restrictive way?

52 minutes ago, casimir said:

As far as the pitching options go, there's no harm in moving healthy bodies down Toledo.  If the list that I am looking at is correct, Wentz is the only healthy 40 man pitcher in the minors right now.

Looks like 47 total on the 40 which includes 8 on the 60 day IL.  So there is one spot of wiggle room to work with for guys returning from the 60.  But that's before the fun of minor league options.

The 40-man roster is full. Not sure who you are missing in your count, but they have 48 with 8 on the 60-Day, with three on the 60-Day nearing the end of their Toledo rehabs. And Blair Calvo is on the 40 in Toledo, so the list you are looking at is not right.

 

44 minutes ago, casimir said:

 

Marisnick is probably going to lose out to the 40 man roster crunch, too.  Its not just the active 26 that he is going to be a victim of, but the lack of minor league options, too.  Who knows, its the all star break already, he might decide to stick with the organization for the rest of the season if he is offered a spot in Toledo after release.

This is the problem when people like McCosky fumble roster terminology. The mechanics of Marisnick's probably demotion are as follows. He is out of options, but he is also over five years service time. Out of options means he has to go through waivers to be sent to the minor leagues. Over five years service time gives him the right to refuse that assignment. Having been previously outrighted gives him the right to declare free agency instead of going to Toledo.  So... he's likely going to clear waivers, and he accepted his assignment with the White Sox in may and decided to hang around. I bet he can be outrighted without incident. Being out of options does not mean he will be released. The only way he is released is if he refuses assignment and forces the Tigers hand. For these purposes, refusing assignment is not something that shows up in the transactions log, and declaring free agency is what Seth Elledge did a couple weeks ago.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Edman85

[gehringer_2]

The arithmetic is that they are not going to carry 5* OF only players. A number past 4 and that player has to double somewhere else. So with Greene, Baddoo, Vierling, Carpenter as 1-4, Haase is #5 and he is filling a second spot as the backup catcher. For Marisnick to stick, you have to have another OF doubling on the IF. Vierling can supposedly play on the IF but since he has only played 3 innings there this season the Tigers don't appear to take that possibility seriously. 

P - 13

C - 2

IF - 6

DH - 1

that leaves only 4 OF.

Marisnick's attraction is that he is a RHB and he is a better OF than Haase, but he can't replace Haase as the 5th OF because he can't catch or replace a utility infielder.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

38 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

. The only way he is released is if he refuses assignment and forces the Tigers hand. For these purposes, refusing assignment is not something that shows up in the transactions log, and declaring free agency is what Seth Elledge did a couple weeks ago.

Tigers seem like a decent org most of the time. You'd think they'd at least call around for him and see if they can move him. Or if his agent is any good he'll know if he has a potental landing spot somewhere if he refuses assignment. Otherwise his best career move would be to go to AAA so he can keep playing and work toward getting a ST invite from a team next season.

Of course the other question is whether they have playing time for him in Toledo. Once Baddoo is activated their roster shows 4 OFs. Parker is going to play everyday. Witherspoon and Steele are filler, Solak is just as much an IF, so why not?

[kdog]

 

[1984Echoes]

14 minutes ago, kdog said:

 

They looked at his .203 BA and said: "Nah, we can't do that."

Overlooking everything else that you just posted.

Aside from that... I would still like to see him get up to at least .230-.240-ish and .800-.850-ish OPS.

With his defense, that's a damn fine starting Catcher. And I don't care what the All-Stars says...

[Tiger337]

Rogers will never hit for a high average because he strikes out too much.  He's good enough as is- strong defense and good power.  That's fine for a catcher.  

Edited July 3, 2023 by Tiger337

[chasfh]

12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Of course he's hitting at Toledo....

I have to say I don't see the fascination. Decent walk rate but other than that a dime-a-dozen 4A 2B.

Obviously the right guy likes him  (Harris)

The right guy doesn't have a better option available to him.

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The right guy doesn't have a better option available to him.

Isn't it his job to find better options?   

[chasfh]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Isn't it his job to find better options?   

Yes, if they are out there.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Yes, if they are out there.

It just seemed like an odd defense of a GM (or whatever he is).  That's usually something that is said about managers.  

[gehringer_2]

Just now, chasfh said:

Yes, if they are out there.

The odd coindence is that what I would say were Harris' only two misses both related to 3B, Maton and Malloy. And Malloy may yet end up a valuable MLB hitter, he's just apparently not going to do it at 3B. A couple of possibilities: 3B just happens to be an unusually hard position to fill right now, or who ever was assigned to grade 3B glove work wasn't up to the task.

[Tiger337]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

The odd coindence is that what I would say were Harris' only two misses both related to 3B, Maton and Malloy. And Malloy may yet end up a valuable MLB hitter, he's just apparently not going to do it at 3B. A couple of possibilities: 3B just happens to be an unusually hard position to fill right now, or who ever was assigned to grade 3B glove work wasn't up to the task.

They had a 3B!

[chasfh]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It just seemed like an odd defense of a GM (or whatever he is).  That's usually something that is said about managers.  

I still have the initial faith that Harris is doing everything he can to find the best players available at any given time, so if he hasn't yet signed someone better than Maton, my assumption is that there is not a better player than Maton at this position who is freely available. Once it is clear that Harris is consistently failing to find and sign the best players available on the open market—once he demonstrates that he is incompetent at this very basic part of his job—I'll pick up the torch and pitchfork along with everyone else.

Edited July 3, 2023 by chasfh

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The odd coindence is that what I would say were Harris' only two misses both related to 3B, Maton and Malloy. And Malloy may yet end up a valuable MLB hitter, he's just apparently not going to do it at 3B. A couple of possibilities: 3B just happens to be an unusually hard position to fill right now, or who ever was assigned to grade 3B glove work wasn't up to the task.

I would say it's a miss only if there were a clearly better 3B on the market at the same time that Harris picked Maton over. Was there, in your opinion?

I would also not characterize Malloy as a miss because he was not a good third baseman in the Braves system, either, so it's not as though we were bringing him over as third base or bust. I think they tried to give him one last shot there to see whether he could improve under different coaching enough to cultivate him there. Apparently, he can't, but he might pay out in left.

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They had a 3B!

So I was just looking at Jeimer's splits for the last few years and what's interesting is that his performance as a RHB has been pretty consistent in the 675-725 OPS range. But it's his performance as a LHB that has yo-yo'd  up and down from year to year - up to over 800 and then back down into the 600's.

Now the funny thing is the wrist issue was in his left wrist and supposedly bothered him batting RH as per here. That actually dovetails with that fact that his RH performance has never gotten close to where it was in 2018 since. But it doesn't explain why his LH batting has been up and down year to year.

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I would also not characterize Malloy as a miss because he was not a good third baseman in the Braves system,

Sure - maybe just a moonshoot there, but then again, you can't give Harris a pass for not putting a better 3b on the field (or in the near pipeline) by saying he knew the guys he picked up as possible replacements couldn't play there in the first place.

>Was there, in your opinion?

Not my job man! 

If you have a working knowledge of league personal and you know you aren't going to find a 3b, why do you let Candelario go? And of you say Ilitch didn't give him a choice I'm going to say he may have already failed as a GM if his relationship with his owner is such that he can't move him on a $7M decision.

That's my angle on it. I was fine with letting JC go because my assumption was Harris was going to competently fill the hole. Now in retrospect, my hindsight view definitely swings 180 because he didn't. 

Now that's not to say I'm grabbing a pitchfork. As posted above, I've liked most of his personnel moves other than 3b - nobody's going to bat 1000. But I'm not going to give him a pass and blame 3B on some forces outside Harris' control either.

Edited July 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tigermojo]

1 hour ago, kdog said:

 

I was looking at those stats yesterday. I think it's because he doesn't have enough at bats to qualify. He's been starting most games recently and they should continue to see if he can handle a starting role.

[Tiger337]

27 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I would say it's a miss only if there were a clearly better 3B on the market at the same time that Harris picked Maton over. Was there, in your opinion?

I would also not characterize Malloy as a miss because he was not a good third baseman in the Braves system, either, so it's not as though we were bringing him over as third base or bust. I think they tried to give him one last shot there to see whether he could improve under different coaching enough to cultivate him there. Apparently, he can't, but he might pay out in left.

[Motor City Sonics]

Dear E-Rod and Tarik

 

Stay away from all fireworks the next few days.    Also don't attempt to cut any meat or any fruit.    In fact, wrap yourselves in bubble wrap until the games start Tuesday.  

[Toddwert]

2 hours ago, kdog said:

 

I think the Royals needing a player in ASG cost Rogers a spot