2023 Detroit Tigers Regular Season Discussion Thread

[casimir]

8 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Framing pitches will be a lost art if they go to computerized ball/strike calls.

I think I'm fine with that.

[casimir]

8 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Marisnick has a history with Hinch. Also a RH bat who can play excellent defense. Platoon with Baddoo for LF?

What would your position player roster look like after Greene and Baddoo return?  Is there a spot for Marisnick?

[Edman85]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

you've got the wrong manager. 

Or the wrong era... Why play somebody 150 games when you know 30 of those match-ups are poor ones that a platoon partner can complement? Let's go back to the pre-Hinch Avila era plug-n-play model. "We need a starting shortstop? Jordy Mercer plays shortstop. Mission accomplished."

Edited July 4, 2023 by Edman85

[alex]

7 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Vierling and McKinstry appear to be the two best baseball players on the team right now, without Greene. I'd like to see them both make a serious dent into infield playing time in the second half. And I'm not looking for more platooners, I want to find a guy to play 150 games at second and another to do the same at third.  They probably are not the guys but let's have a look. 

This 'sounds' good but for the most part those days may be gone for most all teams. The days of 6-7 starting position players 'starting' 150+ games for any team may unfortunately be a thing of the past.

Like 3 SPs going 200 innings (used to be 250 before that) - for any team is also a thing of the past (there may be an outlier here and there but... ). Now teams seem to be gearing more for 'options' at SP to be able to pitch 150 innings. Say 10 per in and out of a system.

Injuries are a major part of this and there are several underlying reasons there, some maybe more apparent (at this time) than others.

However, I DO agree with you. Hopefully the Tigs can come up with a couple more productive 'starting' type players (ex start 120+, and in several other games as well). Seems right now they are more concerned with getting pieces in place and maybe later (again hopefully not too much later) adding 1-2 of those 'bigger' missing pieces.

Edited July 4, 2023 by alex

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Or the wrong era... Why play somebody 150 games when you know 30 of those match-ups are poor ones that a platoon partner can complement? Let's go back to the pre-Hinch Avila era plug-n-play model. "We need a starting shortstop? Jordy Mercer plays shortstop. Mission accomplished."

I'm not seeing a whole bunch of successful platoons.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Or the wrong era... Why play somebody 150 games when you know 30 of those match-ups are poor ones that a platoon partner can complement? Let's go back to the pre-Hinch Avila era plug-n-play model. "We need a starting shortstop? Jordy Mercer plays shortstop. Mission accomplished."

I'm with JC on Vierling. He has close to zero platoon split for his career and negative for this season so far. He's as close as we have to someone who should play every day after Greene. Hinch is playing him almost full time. It will be interesting to see if that continues once Baddoo is back.

[chasfh]

23 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I hear ya. I wanted him to stay, too, from the very beginning, and I took a lot of **** here, and from more than one guy, for banging that drum.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t entirely Harris’s decision to let him go, or based on an assessment that Jeimer was done done.

[chasfh]

8 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

you've got the wrong manager. 

More like the wrong players. Unless you want to write Vierling and McKinstry down for 150 games in pen and not look back no matter how they do afterward.

Edited July 4, 2023 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, chasfh said:

More like the wrong players. Unless you want to write Vierling and McKinstry down for 150 games in pen and not look back no matter how they do afterward.

With neither Maton nor Nevin having worked out, the 2B 3B platoon is pretty much blown up. We are pretty much going to have to play both McKinstry and Ibanez full time, one is RH, one is LH. I'd say they are about equal at 3rd but Ibanez grades out better at 2nd so you have pretty much a non-platoon IF of Tork(3), Ibanez(4), McKinstry(5) and Baez(6). Short can start in place of McKinstry against LHP but that's going to be about as much platoon as you get on our IF now if you want to keep the best team on the field. History also argues Short is going to run down if he plays a lot.

The platoon dilemma is playing Baddoo  over Vierling. Baddoo is more disruptive but Vierling has been the better hitter even against RHP. If they think Baddoo has upside potential we haven't seen (or think Vierling is playing over his head) then I guess you make the investment. Or you're just looking at individual pitcher/hitter matchups.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Jim Cowan]

16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

More like the wrong players. Unless you want to write Vierling and McKinstry down for 150 games in pen and not look back no matter how they do afterward.

I'd like to write a player down for 20 games and not automatically default to a platoon.  If Carpenter has 2 hits including a home run, and a lefthanded pitcher comes in, I'd like to leave Carpenter in the game and not see Haase pinch hit for him.  So I don't think anybody gets 150 games guaranteed but I would like to see roles expanded for people who are having success.

[Edman85]

2 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I'm not seeing a whole bunch of successful platoons.

It was working very well in May, but across baseball...

The Rays have the best record in baseball and platoon out the wazoo.

The Rangers do too.

The Braves have one, but they also has stars at at least six of their spots.

The Dodgers are currently platooning three spots.

The Orioles are platooning at 1B and 2B.

I don't see any platoons on the Astros, but they have one left-handed starter and you aren't platooning Kyle Tucker.

[Sports_Freak]

6 hours ago, casimir said:

What would your position player roster look like after Greene and Baddoo return?  Is there a spot for Marisnick?

Baddoo or Marisnick? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Marisnick sticks...

[Tiger337]

6 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Or the wrong era... Why play somebody 150 games when you know 30 of those match-ups are poor ones that a platoon partner can complement? Let's go back to the pre-Hinch Avila era plug-n-play model. "We need a starting shortstop? Jordy Mercer plays shortstop. Mission accomplished."

Ideally, you don't use 32 year-old Jody Mercer at all because he was a poor fielder at that point. 

There have been platoons in every era since I have been watching the game.  They are harder to do now because so many roster spots are used for relievers but, as you pointed out, teams are still using them.  I don't know if I like an overabundance of platooning.  If someone is a good fielder, they shouldn't necessarily be platooned because their defense may override the value of the offensive platoon.  An old timer example would be Lou Whitaker who never hit well against LHP but his defensive value in his prime was more important than an offensive platoon advantage.  Later in his career, when his defense slipped, it made sense to platoon him and they did.   

 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

It was working very well in May, 

 

But if you don't have all the right pieces, it won't work all season even if guys stay healthy.  

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Edman85 said:

It was working very well in May, but across baseball...

The Rays have the best record in baseball and platoon out the wazoo.

The Rangers do too.

The Braves have one, but they also has stars at at least six of their spots.

The Dodgers are currently platooning three spots.

The Orioles are platooning at 1B and 2B.

I don't see any platoons on the Astros, but they have one left-handed starter and you aren't platooning Kyle Tucker.

Platoons are based on left hand hitting starters that have large platoon splits . Then you can generally find cheap RH hitters that can hit LH pitching but since they can't hit RH pitching they can't hold down a starting role anywhere and thus don't cost much. If you start with a RH hitter good enought to break into a starting line-up, it's generally because they either have a small platoon split to being with, or only have a platoon split because they hit LHP pitching at some all-star rate and still hit RHP better than the average average part time LHH that might be available.. Thus little platoon motivation. Platoon splits run higher for starting LHH batters across the league for this reason - a RHH batter with a big platoon split is simply less likely to ever become an everyday player.

The shift devalued LH hitting more than RHH so it's demise should re-establish the generally higher value of LH hitting starters and one result will be to increase the number of starters that benefit by being platooned so as to avoid facing LH pitching.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I'd like to write a player down for 20 games and not automatically default to a platoon.  If Carpenter has 2 hits including a home run, and a lefthanded pitcher comes in, I'd like to leave Carpenter in the game and not see Haase pinch hit for him.  So I don't think anybody gets 150 games guaranteed but I would like to see roles expanded for people who are having success.

I agree with this in principle. The question is whether we have guys on this roster that we can do that with. Who do we have on this roster today who has proven that they are, or are ready to be, major league regulars, a guy who plays at an above average level on a reasonably consistent basis and who has enough future with the team that you could see signing him for more than a year at a time? Riley is in that camp, if he can stay on the field. Maybe Tork. Anyone else?

Because it’s not just about the platoon issue, which is a very real consideration for rosters and lineups that every manager in the game, not just Hinch, has to deal with. It’s also about whether a guy is even ready to take on the responsibility of playing every game every day, good for 650 trips to the plate in a season. There are a lot of guys in the game who just can’t do that at this level, whether they aren’t consistent enough to perform every day, or can’t handle the pressure of performing to everyday expectations, or even because they are more prone to injury or just get plain tired. And even if you think you want to see someone every day, there’s a really good chance you might not like the results if they do. That was one of the things I would say about Mike Fontenot when he played for the Cubs: he was great for 300 at bats in a platoon situation, but give him an everyday job and you starting seeing all the things he can’t do.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

With neither Maton nor Nevin having worked out, the 2B 3B platoon is pretty much blown up. We are pretty much going to have to play both McKinstry and Ibanez full time, one is RH, one is LH. I'd say they are about equal at 3rd but Ibanez grades out better at 2nd so you have pretty much a non-platoon IF of Tork(3), Ibanez(4), McKinstry(5) and Baez(6). Short can start in place of McKinstry against LHP but that's going to be about as much platoon as you get on our IF now if you want to keep the best team on the field. History also argues Short is going to run down if he plays a lot.

The platoon dilemma is playing Baddoo  over Vierling. Baddoo is more disruptive but Vierling has been the better hitter even against RHP. If they think Baddoo has upside potential we haven't seen (or think Vierling is playing over his head) then I guess you make the investment. Or you're just looking at individual pitcher/hitter matchups.

If Baddoo has much less of a future with this team, and in fact they don’t see a future for him at all, they might as well sit him and play Hot Hand Vierling to see whether he can hack it. If they think Baddoo has a future here, then they had better find space for him on the field on a pretty regular, at least platoon, basis.

Not for nothing, I remember fondly the days of reading posts earlier this season about wanting to see Andy Ibanez walk the plank, and I look forward to a return of those days.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Not for nothing, I remember fondly the days of reading posts earlier this season about wanting to see Andy Ibanez walk the plank, and I look forward to a return of those days.

at best, Ibanez is too old to be part of any future core even he plays well. But I don't have a problem with that - any good team is going to have transitional guys making contributions in a given year who are not 'core'.

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If Baddoo has much less of a future with this team, and in fact they don’t see a future for him at all, they might as well sit him and play Hot Hand Vierling to see whether he can hack it. If they think Baddoo has a future here, then they had better find space for him on the field on a pretty regular, at least platoon, basis.

Not for nothing, I remember fondly the days of reading posts earlier this season about wanting to see Andy Ibanez walk the plank, and I look forward to a return of those days.

less of a problem on Cabrera's off days as Carpenter can DH and that opens the OF spot. But  if Cabrera keeps up his high OBP there is a lot of motivation to play him. LOL - I never dreamed that at any point in this season I would be saying that Cabrera's positive production could be creating hard choices for Hinch.

[SoCalTiger]

Greene Verling Badoo/Marisnick OF

McKinstry 3B Baez SS Ibanez 2b

Tork 1B. Rogers C 

Carpenter/Miggy DH

Short Haase bench

Clear to me if they want to put the best team on the field this year defensively. I don’t want Carpenter in the outfield ever and need to hide Badoos arm when possible. Sorry Schoop times up. 

[chasfh]

26 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

at best, Ibanez is too old to be part of any future core even he plays well. But I don't have a problem with that - any good team is going to have transitional guys making contributions in a given year who are not 'core'.

 

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Greene Verling Badoo/Marisnick OF

McKinstry 3B Baez SS Ibanez 2b

Tork 1B. Rogers C 

Carpenter/Miggy DH

Short Haase bench

Clear to me if they want to put the best team on the field this year defensively. I don’t want Carpenter in the outfield ever and need to hide Badoos arm when possible. Sorry Schoop times up. 

Can not see Hinch going with only 4 middle IFs for more than a series or two. Wouldn't be prudent. 

Whether Schoop stays or goes, there will be a 5th MIF. I suppose it's possible someone will report Vierling has started taking IF practice - but till then I'll retain my doubt he is it. Camargo the more likely replacement for the LH IF bat lost when Maton was sent out.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

I just think it's asking too much for Hinch, and Harris, to find eight major league regulars, four regular rotation guys, and a regular back of the bullpen, out of this motley system. Harris inherited a mess, and part of that mess is being left with a severe lack of leverage to swing deals and sign impact players. We are at least a couple of years from being able to do that. In the meantime, we have to play the players we got, and try to find diamonds in a market that's rough on people who are low on options.

Even if some people were to get what they wish for and see Harris kick Hinch's ass to the curb this winter, there's at least a 50/50 chance they wouldn't like his replacement, either, and then we'd have this conversation all over again next year.

[Tigermojo]

C - Rogers

1B - Tork

2B - Ibanez

SS - Baez

3B - McKinstry

LF - Baddoo

CF - Greene

RF - Vierling

DH - Carpenter

Haase back up catcher. Some LF

Cabrera DH against lefties

Schoop back up infielder

Short back up infielder

Marisnick odd man out 

In the offseason, try to improve at second, third and corner outfield so the bench ends up being Haase, McKinstry, Baddoo and maybe Ibanez. Keith and Malloy might be those guys or someone outside the organization.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Tigermojo

[gehringer_2]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:11 AM, Edman85 said:

The 40-man roster is full.

Kreidler still on short term IL? Haven't seen any details but abdominal surgery would normally make someone a candidate for the 60d.