casimir Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: With AJ, we all have heard his comments about "winning today's game" so many times. And I've seen him leverage guys in the past who were operating off of much less rest or, despite the quality of the pen, dealing with pens that were far more taxed coming into last night's game, in order to put the team in the best position to "win today's game." I think he fell short last night and has to take some of the blame. No, that doesn't mean I think he should be fired, nor does it mean that the talent he has been given is good, but like with anyone else, it should be acceptable to make criticisms when he makes mistakes. And generally, it just seems like he's "off-limits" for any sort of criticism in some corners. Pretty well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: LOL - . The Tigers MLB page headline for last night was 'Bullpen Growing Pains' Cisnero is 34, Shreve is 33, Wingentner is 29. Youthful inexperience last night was not. Wingenter hasn't pitched much in three years, so I could see the term applying to him to an extent. Cisnero, OTOH... that's probably the first bus ticket out of town imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 8 hours ago, buddha said: aj hinch has a better managerial record than jim leyland. as soon as leyland had a team with a bunch of bad players on it, he quit. As soon as Hinch has a bunch of players who cheat, they win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 I think it’s fair for Hinch to try different guys in different situations early in a season to see who can do what, particularly when you have a roster that is basically turned over from the previous year. But he definitely should have saved Lange for the ninth for this game, because we really needed to win this game. And every game until we win again will also be this game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellmell50 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: I think it’s fair for Hinch to try different guys in different situations early in a season to see who can do what, particularly when you have a roster that is basically turned over from the previous year. But he definitely should have saved Lange for the ninth for this game, because we really needed to win this game. And every game until we win again will also be this game. all these experiments should have been done in spring training so you know who to pitch in the ninth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 29 minutes ago, kellmell50 said: all these experiments should have been done in spring training so you know who to pitch in the ninth It’s true, this should be done in spring training, although it takes longer than just a few weeks and also exposing guys to games that matter to see what it is we really got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 36 minutes ago, chasfh said: I think it’s fair for Hinch to try different guys in different situations early in a season to see who can do what, particularly when you have a roster that is basically turned over from the previous year. But he definitely should have saved Lange for the ninth for this game, because we really needed to win this game. And every game until we win again will also be this game. I don't disagree with bringing Lange into the 8th as Springer and Bichette were due up 2nd & 3rd in the inning. Maybe the 8th should have been split between Foley and Lange to get through the 7th-9th. Or maybe Shreve gets included into that mix. Maybe there was a fear of pitching Foley, a ground ball pitcher to Kiermaier, a ground ball hitter with speed. But I think that or Lange for 2 innings (or including Shreve in there) is a better risk than Wingenter against the middle of the Toronto order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 38 minutes ago, kellmell50 said: all these experiments should have been done in spring training so you know who to pitch in the ninth That is true to an extent - however, often in ST teams do not have their A lineup in the game in the late innings. Sometimes they extend players towards the end of camp, but even then managers often take out a few of them to avoid injuries and you then have several 'A' ball types who are in the game that get invited to the big league camp that am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 41 minutes ago, chasfh said: I think it’s fair for Hinch to try different guys in different situations early in a season to see who can do what, particularly when you have a roster that is basically turned over from the previous year. But he definitely should have saved Lange for the ninth for this game, because we really needed to win this game. And every game until we win again will also be this game. Lange should have pitched the 8th and the 9th. The restricted one inning only reliever pitching is an old school strategy that managers like Hinch should have evolved from. He was smart enough to use his closer in the 8th inning, but too dumb to leave him in. Lange only threw 12 pitches, what is Hinch protecting him from? The thing that isn't being discussed enough is the blown umpire call of interference on Kreidler that cost the Tigers a run. Why didn't Hinch argue the call more? I know he was upset by it, but he didn't show any fire on the field. I said it a few weeks ago, these are the things that are going to get Hinch fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 11 hours ago, Dtrain72 said: Hinch sends Lange back in in the 9th, it's a W. Hinch is just as ass as everything elae at this point I disagree with both statements. Bringing Lange back in the 9th is a better risk to take than putting Wingenter out there. Give some respect to the context, Toronto had Guerrero, Chapman, Varsho due up. Its not like Lange is a slam dunk to get through that. But the odds seem to be better to do so by using the better pitcher. Hinch hasn't been as awful as everything else this season. He failed with the bullpen last night. But he also doesn't have a reliable bullpen to work with at this point in time. He doesn't have a reliable lineup to work with at this point in time. And not to totally remove blame from the team, but I think we also have to remember the competition is simply better than the Tigers at this point. Be it on paper and/or how its actually played out. This Tiger team is not good and they've been playing playoff caliber teams (save for Boston) on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said: Why didn't Hinch argue the call more? I know he was upset by it, but he didn't show any fire on the field. Hinch's defense of himself was that there was no chance the call would be overturned, but that really isn't the point, is it? You still owe it to your players to give the ump hell for making a bad call that led to the run that was the difference in the game. Your manager rolls over for the ump --> your teams rolls over to the opposition. QED. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, casimir said: Hinch hasn't been as awful as everything else this season. He failed with the bullpen last night. But he also doesn't have a reliable bullpen to work with at this point in time. He doesn't have a reliable lineup to work with at this point in time. the issue here is that he is gaming out ahead, wanting to keep options open for using Lange today etc. That is fine - to a point. But it's a managing style for a winning team, not a losing one. This is maybe my number one issue with Hinch's philosophies. He's managing to marginal effects his team will almost never get to the point of being able to use. All this interchangeable parts for ultimate lineup flexibility and saving relievers to keep every option open is fine if you think you are going to be in every game you play, but the Tiger are not going to be in every game they play so to me that means your philosophy to maximize your chances to win 100 games needs to be ****canned and replaced by one where you pull out every stop in any potential win in front of you and let the next loss that is probably coming anyway just come. Edited April 13, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 39 minutes ago, casimir said: I don't disagree with bringing Lange into the 8th as Springer and Bichette were due up 2nd & 3rd in the inning. Maybe the 8th should have been split between Foley and Lange to get through the 7th-9th. Or maybe Shreve gets included into that mix. Maybe there was a fear of pitching Foley, a ground ball pitcher to Kiermaier, a ground ball hitter with speed. But I think that or Lange for 2 innings (or including Shreve in there) is a better risk than Wingenter against the middle of the Toronto order. That's a fair point about who was due up. Maybe Foley pitches until a guy gets on base, and if so, bring in Lange to try to shut the barn door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 34 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said: Lange should have pitched the 8th and the 9th. The restricted one inning only reliever pitching is an old school strategy that managers like Hinch should have evolved from. He was smart enough to use his closer in the 8th inning, but too dumb to leave him in. Lange only threw 12 pitches, what is Hinch protecting him from? Maybe he wanted to see whether Wingenter is a guy you can trust in that kind of high leverage situation, although that's a lot more defensible as a move that failed this time if the team is 5-5 versus if a team is 2-8 and on a five-game L streak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Hinch's defense of himself was that there was no chance the call would be overturned, but that really isn't the point, is it? You still owe it to your players to give the ump hell for making a bad call that led to the run that was the difference in the game. Your manager rolls over for the ump --> your teams rolls over to the opposition. QED. He rolled over when his players were cheating in Houston. It's par for the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Also, there is zero chance A.J. Hinch gets fired this season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Wingeter just looks nervous to me when he’s pitching. Part of it is due to his heavy sweating and red face, but maybe he should be eased into clutch situations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Wingeter just looks nervous to me when he’s pitching. Part of it is due to his heavy sweating and red face, but maybe he should be eased into clutch situations. LOL - maybe that's just his natural state, but if I'm a batter I think I'd be nervous facing a pitcher that looked that nervous! 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Devil's advocate: the pitching gave up three earned runs in nine innings. Nobody is going to win many games by scoring three runs. If the hitters do their job, there's no extra innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tenacious D said: Wingeter just looks nervous to me when he’s pitching. Part of it is due to his heavy sweating and red face, but maybe he should be eased into clutch situations. Wingenter did have a leverage situation in their first win, so that may have bought him an opportunity. I think it’s OK to carry him, but ideally he would be more of a 6th or 7th inning guy, not getting save opportunities Edited April 13, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: Devil's advocate: the pitching gave up three earned runs in nine innings. Nobody is going to win many games by scoring three runs. If the hitters do their job, there's no extra innings. yes -also true. The BP has been a huge issue in other games but less so last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 30 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: Devil's advocate: the pitching gave up three earned runs in nine innings. Nobody is going to win many games by scoring three runs. If the hitters do their job, there's no extra innings. The hitters need to be better and, in terms case of a couple of them (*cough* Jarvy *cough*), should be better than they have produced so far. Although yesterday was tough with Gausman, feels lucky that they even got the runs they did, although the had other opportunities to tack on as well. To add, of the bullpen and hitters, whenever one of those two things can improve, they will start getting more wins than they are now. I feel a bit better about the hitters than the pitchers in that regard... but with a better offense or a better bullpen, this team is maybe 4-7 or 5-6 right now, not 2-9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 3 hours ago, kellmell50 said: all these experiments should have been done in spring training so you know who to pitch in the ninth On the other hand stats show it really doesn't matter who pitches the ninth. The conversion rate with a 2 run lead is about 95 percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 11 hours ago, buddha said: aj hinch has a better managerial record than jim leyland. as soon as leyland had a team with a bunch of bad players on it, he quit. Better magerial record or better players? The Astros have been doing quite well under Dusty Baker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Better magerial record or better players? The Astros have been doing quite well under Dusty Baker. leyland won a world series with a team of free agent mercenaries in florida. he never won another. hinch had three teams win more than 100 games in a season. jim leyland never won 100 games. if anything, leyland's teams in detroit continually underachieved. and like i said, when leyland was managing teams with poor talent, he lost a ton of games and then quit on colorado and florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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