SCOTUS and whatnot

[Tigeraholic1]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

Move in-person voting to Saturday and Sunday. That'll solve a few problems.

Why not?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[CMRivdogs]

49 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

but in an economy where so many people live pay check to pay check in a gig economy, it's really the same thing. Voting that ends up coming at time cost is voting that comes at economic cost which is a voting right that is being fundamentally denied. The founders set elections for November when the crops were in but before winter hit hard, when gentleman farmers had nothing but time on their hands and movement was still possible. Even they clearly intended to make voting as easy as possible.

Not to mention Tuesday was usually the day they went to town for supplies. 
 

Within the last 50 years we've gone from when stores were closed Sundays to being open 7 days. It wasn't that long ago that car dealers were closed on Saturdays.

My wife was amazed when she first went to Chicago in 1990 that many stores in the biggest mall in the area closed at 6 PM on Saturdays.

There is no reason not to have polling places open for at least two weeks before the election. Not necessarily schools and churches that are commonly used for Election Day, but at least village halls and perhaps a local community center. You would probably get more volunteer poll workers that way as well.

[CMRivdogs]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

Move in-person voting to Saturday and Sunday. That'll solve a few problems.

Only if we go back to closing businesses on Sundays

[Motown Bombers]

If the election was on Sunday, most people in Michigan would stay home to watch the Lions. 

[smr-nj]

33 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You don’t think any of them had to wait in excessive lines to vote through all that lineage? I was talking exclusively about line waiting not voting rights. 

Actually, I’m sure none of them had to wait in lines that long. I’ve known all of them my whole life.

[gehringer_2]

44 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

 Now you are reaching back to gentlemen farmers whatever those were. There are multiple ways to vote today that Ezekiel didn’t have access to.

the point being that even in 1790 they were setting up the system to be as easy as possible - that was their example. When people say - "well we've always done it this way" they are nodding to the fact of history but missing the principle behind the fact. To follow the principle we should be using all the tools we have today to make it easier instead of saying "well my immigrant veteran great-great-great-grand-dad who fought in the Revolution stood in the snow to vote and it was good enough for him!" - when the equation should be flipped to say it was the best the country could do for him at the time.

Edited February 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tigeraholic1]

20 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the point being that even in 1790 they were setting up the system to be as easy as possible - that was their example. When people say - "well we've always done it this way" they are nodding to the fact of history but missing the principle behind the fact. To follow the principle we should be using all the tools we have today to make it easier instead of saying "well my immigrant veteran great-great-great-grand-dad who fought in the Revolution stood in the snow to vote and it was good enough for him!" - when the equation should be flipped to say it was the best the country could do for him at the time.

What about mail in voting? I thought that had a huge impact on the last election cycle. How can you get anymore easy/convenient?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

 

What about mail in voting? I thought that had a huge impact on the last election cycle. How can you get anymore easy/convenient?

mail in voting is great - how many state GOPs  are trying to move away from it as we speak?

Edited February 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

28 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

If the election was on Sunday, most people in Michigan would stay home to watch the Lions. 

you mean in an alternate universe where we had Holiday voting the Lions would be winners?! Sign me up!

[buddha]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

but in an economy where so many people live pay check to pay check in a gig economy, it's really the same thing. Voting that ends up coming at time cost is voting that comes at economic cost which is a voting right that is being fundamentally denied. The founders set elections for November when the crops were in but before winter hit hard, when gentleman farmers had nothing but time on their hands and movement was still possible. Even they clearly intended to make voting as easy as possible.

just move it to a sunday like everyone else.

[Jim Cowan]

I think I always vote on a weeknight, never a weekend, at a local school or church.  Longest wait in my life is probably 10 minutes.  Here is something else that is weird...we don't use voting machines, even though a Canadian company supplied some of yours.  I mark an X on a piece of paper.  If I stay up a bit past midnight, all the votes have been counted, or at least enough to predict a winner.  Russians have not yet found a way to hack an X written with a pencil on a piece of paper.  So, you guys are weird.  I love you, but there it is.

[pfife]

This isn't complaining about lines.  It's discussing undue burdens placed upon one for fulfilling their constitutional rights (and perhaps responsibilities). 

Edited February 9, 2022 by pfife

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Why not?

Indeed. Vast majority of nations in the world which conduct free elections (60 out of 74 countries shown here) does so on Saturday or Sunday, specifically so they can get as many people to the polls as possible.

That’s what democracies that walk the walk, and not just talk the talk, do.

By the way, when did we buy Greenland after all? How did I miss that?

Edited February 9, 2022 by chasfh

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

That’s a different situation than the one you were speaking to.  
 

The closing of polling locations should not happen. Waiting in a line for 2 two hours should feel more like a badge of honor, some have sacrificed so you can.

That may be a true and satisfying feeling for some people, but on the other hand, a lot of people who can’t find friends to stand in line for them and can’t afford to wait two hours for whatever reason will just bail on the whole act of voting.

A true democracy accommodates itself to its people, rather than demanding that people jump through hoops for it.

[chasfh]

12 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

No Mam, I saw men crying for their mothers as they lay dying excruciating deaths. They sacrificed more than an inconvenience of a long line. a small sacrifice to wait in line if it means so many people are able to vote freely. Sorry it offends anyone.

Wait can’t we both honor the tremendous sacrifice our fighting forces have made in  the defense of our freedoms, and make voting as easy and accessible as possible to eligible voters? Why should these be mutually exclusive?

[Tigeraholic1]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Wait can’t we both honor the tremendous sacrifice our fighting forces have made in  the defense of our freedoms, and make voting as easy and accessible as possible to eligible voters? Why should these be mutually exclusive?

You are right. My point being if we have to wait for a while in line to vote and you are able to vote I don't see the big deal. If I have to wait for an hour at the BMV or the SS office should we be upset?  You have to even show an ID in those instances. 

I am not downplaying voters rights issues. It should not be hard to be allowed to vote for anyone legally able to. Why have I never seen protests in Indiana over the last 4-5 election cycles because you have to show an ID to vote? Why have voters rights groups not put a state like this into the spotlight prior to the currrent round of voter rights issues?

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You are right. My point being if we have to wait for a while in line to vote and you are able to vote I don't see the big deal. If I have to wait for an hour at the BMV or the SS office should we be upset?  You have to even show an ID in those instances. 

I am not downplaying voters rights issues. It should not be hard to be allowed to vote for anyone legally able to. Why have I never seen protests in Indiana over the last 4-5 election cycles because you have to show an ID to vote? Why have voters rights groups not put a state like this into the spotlight prior to the currrent round of voter rights issues?

You continue to place the responsibility on us the people to find ways to cheerfully overcome all obstacles to voting that government places in front of us, rather than putting the responsibility on government to implement policies that get as many eligible voters as possible to the polls.

As for the people of Indiana and why don’t they protest, I don’t know for sure, but maybe part of it is a boiling frog issue. Maybe it’s just got harder to vote so gradually for them that they’re not noticing it from year to year, whereas other people who have historically been denied the opportunity to vote are far more aware of the deficiencies of a so-called democracy in which those with certain political aims seek to make voting more difficult for people instead of easier. I don’t know for sure, I’m just spitballing here.

[Tigeraholic1]

56 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You continue to place the responsibility on us the people to find ways to cheerfully overcome all obstacles to voting that government places in front of us, rather than putting the responsibility on government to implement policies that get as many eligible voters as possible to the polls.

 

Poll workers are volunteers right? How can the gov't fix that? Make it a payed position?

[Tigeraholic1]

3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Poll workers are volunteers right? How can the gov't fix that? Make it a payed position?

I was wrong, it varies but most get paid:

How much do poll workers get paid in each state?

The method varies between states with some setting a minimum hourly wage and others opting for daily compensation, but the local authorities can, and often do, pay more to ensure they get enough staff.

Of the states to offer a daily stipend to poll workers, 13 of them have a minimum amount of less than $100 a day:

• Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Virginia

Another seven areas (five states and two territories) guarantee poll workers a minimum daily stipend of at least $100 a day:

• Guam, Maryland, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Virgin Islands

In eleven states poll workers are entitled to be paid at the state or federal minimum wage or higher, on an hourly basis:

• Arkansas, Idaho, Iowa, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, Wyoming

Three states have designated a specific hourly wage that differs from the minimum wage:

• Alaska, Missouri, North Dakota

And poll workers in the remaining states and one territory are not bound by a state-defined minimum wage or daily stipend, leaving the decision of payment entirely in the hands of local election officials:

• American Samoa, California, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Florida, Hawaii, Indiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin

 

 

[CMRivdogs]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression they received a stipend. Something like $50 or so.

I also thought that there needed to be workers from both parties. Which would nullify the losing former president's and his minions claim of hanky panky

 

(posted before I saw the above)

Edited February 9, 2022 by CMRivdogs

[gehringer_2]

Single data point: It appears poll workers in Washtenaw County are 'volunteers' but are paid by the hour - County website says $13-17/hr depending on local jurisdiction

 

https://www.washtenaw.org/DocumentCenter/View/17917/Poll-Worker-FAQ?bidId=

[buddha]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

You continue to place the responsibility on us the people to find ways to cheerfully overcome all obstacles to voting that government places in front of us, rather than putting the responsibility on government to implement policies that get as many eligible voters as possible to the polls.

As for the people of Indiana and why don’t they protest, I don’t know for sure, but maybe part of it is a boiling frog issue. Maybe it’s just got harder to vote so gradually for them that they’re not noticing it from year to year, whereas other people who have historically been denied the opportunity to vote are far more aware of the deficiencies of a so-called democracy in which those with certain political aims seek to make voting more difficult for people instead of easier. I don’t know for sure, I’m just spitballing here.

polling shows that no group of americans think voting access is an important issue.  this includes black americans.

[oblong]

42 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression they received a stipend. Something like $50 or so.

I also thought that there needed to be workers from both parties. Which would nullify the losing former president's and his minions claim of hanky panky

 

(posted before I saw the above)

I don't think that's true in terms of poll workers but each party is allowed a number of 'observers' on site to "keep an eye on things".

 

[buddha]

15 minutes ago, buddha said:

polling shows that no group of americans think voting access is an important issue.  this includes black americans.

counterpoint: most americans like the things that are in the bill. 

i dont think the heated rhetoric helps democrats, but thats just politics.  voter id is not jim crow.  most americans - including most black americans - are in favor of voter id.

[oblong]

in other words, as usual, Dems are bad at "picking their battles".