SCOTUS and whatnot

[pfife]

there sure are a lot of victims up in this mf today

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

for those scoring at home:

Republicans on SC overturn Roe because issue should be left up to the states 

Also

Republicans in Congress are preparing a national 6-week abortion ban because issue should not be left up to the states

 

Outlawing it permanently across the country has always been a top goal. Criminalizing healthcare professionals across the country is next. Criminalizing patients across the country for obtaining an abortion, as well as for going outside the country for the purposes of obtaining one, would be their chefs kiss. 

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the thing is Saber, is that you are doing a lot of metaphysical hand waving here. No-one other than someone claiming religious revelation really knows what human consciousness really even is, where it comes from or where it goes. If I put a 3 week old dog embryo and 3 week old human embryo on slides in front of you, there is no way you could even tell them apart without sophisticated technology. Heck, we know know that every cell in your body actually contains a potentiality to generate a human life, how many have you murdered popping a zit? The deeper you delve into biology the more all of our neat sociological constructs fade into grey.

you've conflated killing a human being with popping a zit.  

you dont need technology to tell its a human embryo, you know its a human embryo because its inside a human.

you are killing a human life.  on purpose.  you can justify it with all sorts of reasons - i know i do.  but at the end of the day, that's what youre doing.  no reason to pussyfoot around the issue to make yourself feel better.

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I love when we on the left get told we're being hyperbolic about how radicalized the Republicans and Christian right are in America. Abortion is done for at least a decade in America. Contraception, teaching sex ed, and marriage equality will be next. This is Republicans America. Obergafell, Griswold, Casey will all be done soon.

Brown, too. 

[Motown Bombers]

I was raised in a Catholic household and went to Catholic school from K-12. My parents were always socially conservative but protected the rights of others. A while back their church solicited them to picket an abortion clinic in Detroit. That was the day they stopped going to that church. The clinic was in Detroit and most likely the women were poor and black and those were the people they wanted to picket. 

[Tiger337]

30 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I agree with protecting life as early as practicable for one simple common sense reason that has nothing to do with religion: I identify with the unborn because that was me one day long ago, and that was every one of you too.

 

That sounds like religion to me.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

you've conflated killing a human being with popping a zit.  

you dont need technology to tell its a human embryo, you know its a human embryo because its inside a human.

you are killing a human life.  on purpose.  you can justify it with all sorts of reasons - i know i do.  but at the end of the day, that's what youre doing.  no reason to pussyfoot around the issue to make yourself feel better.

Is a human being killed when a man masturbates and flushes away the sperm? 

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Outlawing it permanently across the country has always been a top goal. Criminalizing healthcare professionals across the country is next. Criminalizing patients across the country for obtaining an abortion, as well as for going outside the country for the purposes of obtaining one, would be their chefs kiss. 

There are also proposals in some states (Missouri, I believe) that would attempt to criminalize going across state lines to get an abortion.

People acting like the net effect of this ruling stops with states simply adopting the laws they see fit are really downplaying what's gonna come next.

And that doesn't even get into the question of who, whenever abortions do inevitably happen in jurisdictions where it is made illegal, gets criminally prosecuted. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by mtutiger

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Is a human being killed when a man masturbates and flushes away the sperm? 

no.

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, mtutiger said:

There are also proposals in some states (Missouri, I believe) that would attempt to criminalize going across state lines to get an abortion.

People acting like the net effect of this ruling stops with states simply adopting the laws they see fit are really downplaying what's gonna come next.

I also believe Idaho was proposing similar legislation of outlawing cross state travel. 

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, buddha said:

no.

But we were all sperm once. In your medical opinion, when is a baby a baby? 

[buddha]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

But we were all sperm once. In your medical opinion, when is a baby a baby? 

youre equating a sperm with a fertilized egg.  obviously not the same thing.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

because its inside a human.

not necessarily. There are million of in vitros walking around out there as living breathing human. And you still have no idea what a 'life' is. 

Look I'm not arguing these are not hard questions - I'm really arguing that for we *really* know, all our lines are going to be arbitrary and they should be reached by a consensus based on a truly democratic process process because NO ONE, especially a minority, should have the right to demand laws for others based on their religious holdings. If your religion tells you abortion is a sin, don't get one. That's how a free democratic society has to function.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

youre equating a sperm with a fertilized egg.  obviously not the same thing.

So it's a baby once the egg is fertilized? 

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

youre equating a sperm with a fertilized egg.  obviously not the same thing.

kindly define the exact biological parameters if you could? Dolly was the product of an unfertilized egg. So could a human be. (and probably has been in Asia)

Edited May 3, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

not necessarily. There are million of in vitros walking around out there as living breathing human. And you still have no idea what a 'life' is. 

Look I'm not arguing these are not hard questions - I'm really arguing that for we *really* know, all our lines are going to be arbitrary and they should be reached by a consensus based on a truly democratic process process because NO ONE, especially a minority, should have the right to demand laws for others based on their religious holdings. If your religion tells you abortion is a sin, don't get one. That's how a free democratic society has to function.

isnt that what the court says in overturning roe?  that these issues should be decided on a democratic basis by the electorate?

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

isnt that what the court says in overturning roe?  that these issues should be decided on a democratic basis by the electorate?

You think this same court is gonna feel this way whenever someone tries to get it banned nationwide?

[mtutiger]

lol

[buddha]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

kindly define the exact biological parameters if you could? Dolly was the product of an unfertilized egg. So could a human be. (and probably has been in Asia)

science is going to change what we think about as life, that's for sure.  

if you create a human baby in a lab and its 6 months along, is it ok to kill it?  all of these scenarios require some nuance.

[oblong]

abortion is a medical procedure and decisions about it should be left between a woman and her doctor.  Not some old blue haired hag and her pervert pastor husband who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old.  Those are the people that will be making these laws in ass backwards states like Mississippi.  A teenager raped by her father will have less rights than the rapist.  I call them crazies because their opposition and reasoning on abortion law is based on religious beliefs. The idea that "God will sort it all out, it's God's will, etc.".  The concept of a God, god, Allah, Yahweh, etc. should never be factored into a law.  We can't have 50 states with 50 abortion laws. There's already talk of some states making it a crime to go into another state to get an abortion where it's legal.

Spend some time in a neo natal unit and among high risk pregnancy groups where families have to make very difficult and painful decision and then report back. Partial Birth abortion isn't about some woman deciding in month 8 that she doesn't want a kid anymore..... it's much more complicated than that.  Nobody gets one that wants one.  They want the baby.  Nature decided against it and made it risky to have one and now you'll make criminals out of the doctor and mother.  But hey.. tell me again you are pro life because I don't believe you.

 

 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

You think this same court is gonna feel this way whenever someone tries to get it banned nationwide?

what would the question be?  if it gets banned by the legislature, they will probably say nothing.  because that would be the democratic process in action.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

isnt that what the court says in overturning roe?  that these issues should be decided on a democratic basis by the electorate?

We'll see. If states adopt rigorous abortion bans in the wake of a repeal, it will deeply offend my sense of fairness, but not my sense of political process.

Edited May 3, 2022 by gehringer_2

[CMRivdogs]

14 minutes ago, buddha said:

no.

But, but, every sperm is sacred..

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by CMRivdogs

[Motown Bombers]

Since unborn fetuses are babies now, shouldn't the fetus be issued a birth certificate before they leave the birth canal?

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

what would the question be?  if it gets banned by the legislature, they will probably say nothing.  because that would be the democratic process in action.

I assume it would be a challenge to a law in a state allowing for abortions...

I'm just saying that I'm not sure why anyone would have any trust in this court to act with any sort of logical consistency.... 

Edited May 3, 2022 by mtutiger