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SCOTUS and whatnot


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1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

We'll see. If a states adopt rigorous abortion bans in the wake of a repeal, it will deeply offend my sense of fairness, but not my sense of political process.

and when illinois passes a law that allows abortions at any time for any reason, i will feel the same way as you describe above.  

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25 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Sure sounded like Tigeraholic did.

I said the Nazis were able to convice their followers that Jews were less than human and it was ok to gas and murder them. I am comparing the "IDEA" that fetus are less than human and are treated in a similar manner. No one in here is a Nazi. 

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1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I said the Nazis were able to convice their followers that Jews were less than human and it was ok to gas and murder them. I am comparing the "IDEA" that fetus are less than human and are treated in a similar manner. No one in here is a Nazi. 

Both of my mother's parents lived in Italy during WWII and my dad's mother lived in Romania during that time. Both were raised as Catholics and both will protect the right to abortion for the very reason you mention here. Funny how two people can look at one event differently. 

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Just my two cents, but comparing abortion to the Holocaust really trivializes what happened during the Holocaust. And if one harbors pro-life views, it's probably a line that's more of a negative than a positive toward promoting those views.

I'll leave it at that.

Edited by mtutiger
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39 minutes ago, chasfh said:

This kind of thing is said here all the time and I fucking hate this sentiment. We do not deserve this shit just because a quarter millennium ago slaveholders struck a compromise with New Englanders to allow them to maintain outsized political power in exchange for creating some purported union.  

We deserve it because half of the people in this country don't vote.  They don't think it matters.   When half of the country doesn't care, we get this.  

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8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Just my two cents, but comparing abortion to the Holocaust really trivializes what happened during the Holocaust. And if one harbors pro-life views, it's probably a line that's more of a negative than a positive toward promoting those views.

I'll leave it at that.

I for one respect your opinion. Millions of Jews murdered and Millions of babies aborted equates to millions of lives lost. They both make me sad and reflective.

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20 minutes ago, buddha said:

and when illinois passes a law that allows abortions at any time for any reason, i will feel the same way as you describe above.  

to finish the thought though - what I will be most offended by is the hypocrisy, because you and I both know that any number of the very people who used their money, power, preaching and political connections in those states to pass those bans, will turn out to be more than happy to avail themselves of an off-shore pharmacy or ticket to Illinois when a pregnancy in their own private sphere is judged untenable.

Edited by gehringer_2
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1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I for one respect your opinion. Millions of Jews murdered and Millions of babies aborted equates to millions of lives lost. They both make me sad and reflective.

Do you think it would be moral and legal to shoot the nazi's that were killing the Jews?  Like if you had a gun in your hand and could kill them would you?  And would it be moral and legal to do that to prevent the murders of the Jews about to go into gas chambers?

Put another way:

Imagine there's a house on your street where you know people are taking 2 week old babies inside and murdering them.  Are you legally and morally justified to use lethal force to stop that from happening?

 

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3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

never ascribe to ignorance what is more plainly simple duplicitousness.

(:classic_laugh: with my apologies to Hanlon.....)

susan collins is a republican politician and votes accordingly.  when they need her vote, she will give it to them.

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Don't ever call a pro life person on the radical Christian right pro life, they are only pro birth. First and foremost, they are looking to impose their ignorant views of Jesus and Christianity on all of us with a national Christian religion. Don't lose sight of that, they want all of us to fall under and live by their bastardized version of what they think Jesus said and did.

When it comes to helping the poor and those in need, you know, actually providing people with a good quality of life, the Christian Right are bootstrappers through and through. They are some of the most vocal opponents of public assistance programs like TANF benefits, SNAP, WIC, free/reduced school lunch programs, SChip for children's healthcare, Medicaid expansion, Obamacare with preexisting protection previsions, woman's healthcare initiatives, universal healthcare programs like Medicare For All, mental health reforms, student debt forgiveness, racial equity initiatives, and more. They are also proponents of Social Security privatization and ending Social Security altogether. They also worship a man who goes on profanity laced tirades, runs scam charities for veterans, and bilks people out of their money with fraudulent real estate and college courses. They believe that gays, lesbians, transgendered, and non-binary are subhuman and damned to a life of hell. They oppose the right of people to marry whom they love and identify with the gender they feel comfortable with. They fiercely defend the rights of business owners to refuse service to people based on their sexual orientation.

The Christian Right denounces Christianity and Jesus every single day when they selectively live by the words of the Bible and the compassionate Christ they claim to love. They denounce being a truly pro life person when the fight so fiercely against public assistance and social welfare programs that lift people up and provide them with a better quality of life. So they are not pro life, they are only pro birth.

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad
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11 hours ago, mtutiger said:

What I would say on the politics is that I've come to believe on abortion is that support for it tends to sit on sort of a bell curve: people tend to be somewhere in the middle in terms of legality up to a certain period of time...  people tend not to want it totally banned, but maybe not available up until birth. 16-20 weeks or so would maybe be the median.

This decision is down at the far right wing of the bell curve. And if the numbers from Texas below are accurate, Roe v. Wade repeal would be wildly unpopular nationwide.

But we will see what the court does. What it means for the elections, I don't know.

Popular or unpopular doesn’t matter with these religious fanatics. In fact, a central tenet of evangelical Christian fanaticism is the idea that their love of God and devotion to Jesus, such as it is, is unpopular, and they flaunt that as a point of honor. So they actually hope the ruling is unpopular, because that would simply confirm to them the world has rotted to the point that clears the way for Jesus to come back, as foretold by scripture. That’s what their actual hope is. The abortion issue is merely one catalyst leading to it. 

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8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

to finish the thought though - what I will be most offended by is the hypocrisy, because you and I both know that any number of the very people who used their money, power, preaching and political connections in those states to pass those bans, will turn out to be more than happy to avail themselves of an off-shore pharmacy or ticket to Illinois when a pregnancy in their own private sphere is judged untenable.

probably.

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13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

to finish the thought though - what I will be most offended by is the hypocrisy, because you and I both know that any number of the very people who used their money, power, preaching and political connections in those states to pass those bans, will turn out to be more than happy to avail themselves of an off-shore pharmacy or ticket to Illinois when a pregnancy in their own private sphere is judged untenable.

Assuming the state they live in doesn't attempt to criminalize going to Illinois for the purposes of getting an abortion, of course.

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6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Popular or unpopular doesn’t matter with these religious fanatics. In fact, a central tenet of evangelical Christian fanaticism is the idea that their love of God and devotion to Jesus, such as it is, is unpopular, and they flaunt that as a point of honor. So they actually hope the ruling is unpopular, because that would simply confirm to them the world has rotted to the point that clears the way for Jesus to come back, as foretold by scripture. That’s what their actual hope is. The abortion issue is merely one catalyst leading to it. 

Further.... they see it as themselves being persecuted and victimized like the apostles were for their faith.  it gives them a kinship.

 

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1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

Assuming the state they live in doesn't attempt to criminalize going to Illinois for the purposes of getting an abortion, of course.

What would stop them from doing that now? This suspected ruling by the Supreme Court will make it the wild west for states to create all kinds of laws and impose them on woman who have abortions, whether in or out of state. They'll also likely criminalize anyone aiding the woman in having an abortion, so a parent, a friend, whomever may drive a woman to a healthcare clinic, will face accessory type charges as well.

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Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What would stop them from doing that now? This suspected ruling by the Supreme Court will make it the wild west for states to create all kinds of laws and impose them on woman who have abortions, whether in or out of state. They'll also likely criminalize anyone aiding the woman in having an abortion, so a parent, a friend, whomever may drive a woman to a healthcare clinic, will face accessory type charges as well.

A couple states already have legislation preventing women from crossing state lines ready to go. 

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4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What would stop them from doing that now? This suspected ruling by the Supreme Court will make it the wild west for states to create all kinds of laws and impose them on woman who have abortions, whether in or out of state. They'll also likely criminalize anyone aiding the woman in having an abortion, so a parent, a friend, whomever may drive a woman to a healthcare clinic, will face accessory type charges as well.

Exactly.

A lot of people are acting like this issue would be settled at the state and federal level if Roe is overturned and there's really no evidence that's the case at all.

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4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

A couple states already have legislation preventing women from crossing state lines ready to go. 

Buddha can chime in but my guess is that ultimately even a conservative SCOTUS is going to be forced to rule that one state cannot bind  conduct in another in that way. It's a foundational precedent that states must recognize each others sovereignty and jurisdiction. To undercut that would basically be to dissolve the Union.

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