SCOTUS and whatnot

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

It’s basically the same argument I heard Trumpers use “what ifs”

open borders/ no abortions

 

750k Dirty Illegals/ 750K bound to fail babies

The illegals will suck off the welfare system/ The babies will suck off welfare system

We can’t stop the libs because the system is rigged/ Can’t stop the Red Hats because the system is rigged

 

 

There is so much wrong here. First the borders are not open, second Democrats aren't the ones who complain about being a drag on the welfare system. In fact, it was Republicans, plus Manchin, who killed the child tax credit. It's Democrats who want paid maternity leave. It's Democrats who want paid college education. It's Democrats who want more assistance for single mothers. Democrats are merely pointing out the rank hypocrisy that the Republicans are pro birth. The Republicans are the ones who claimed the election was fraudulent and mounted an insurrection on the capitol. Four of the five justices overturning Roe were appointed by Republicans who lost the popular vote and confirmed by senators who represented fewer people than the senators who did not choose to confirm them. A minority in government put in place the people to overturn Roe. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

do you respect his views?  didnt you post earlier about all the anti abortion people just being old men who have hang ups about sex and controlling women?  if that wasnt you then i apologize.

I separate people who I have to assume hold a view honestly from hypocritical misogynist GOP office holders who I know don't.  

Edited May 7, 2022 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

39 minutes ago, buddha said:

of course both are important.  no offense, its you that keeps bringing up alternative scenarios and "what ifs" and counter arguments to everything i say.

ive said a number of times what i think in this thread and you have said you agree with me, so im not sure what youre getting at with this.

Again, I know I quoted you, but it's not necessarily directed at you but rather a broader question for the group. Particularly those who are arguing from a more pro-life position.

[pfife]

45 minutes ago, buddha said:

they abort babies in china if theyre girls.  sounds like democrats are trying to make america more like china.

lol ridiculous

[Tigeraholic1]

15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

There is so much wrong here. First the borders are not open, second Democrats aren't the ones who complain about being a drag on the welfare system. In fact, it was Republicans, plus Manchin, who killed the child tax credit. It's Democrats who want paid maternity leave. It's Democrats who want paid college education. It's Democrats who want more assistance for single mothers. Democrats are merely pointing out the rank hypocrisy that the Republicans are pro birth. The Republicans are the ones who claimed the election was fraudulent and mounted an insurrection on the capitol. Four of the five justices overturning Roe were appointed by Republicans who lost the popular vote and confirmed by senators who represented fewer people than the senators who did not choose to confirm them. A minority in government put in place the people to overturn Roe. 

I brought up that if the majority of Americans were outraged by the repeal of RVW then the people would vote out the crazies allowing it. Then I was told How they red states control everything because of the electoral college and its basically rigged. This sounds like complaining the systems rigged. 

[romad1]

1 minute ago, pfife said:

lol ridiculous

They have a dictatorship in China.  Sounds like the GOP wants to be more like China.

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

This sounds like complaining the systems rigged. 

well, yeah.

If it weren't, like Buddha said, we would have a national abortion law that looked a lot like RvW because that's were most of the public is and this wouldn't be a 40 yr controversy.

Edited May 7, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tigeraholic1]

14 minutes ago, romad1 said:

They have a dictatorship in China.  Sounds like the GOP wants to be more like China.

I remember a lot of saber rattling for a vaccine mandate. If was for the good of the people so…

[Tigeraholic1]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

well, yeah.

If it weren't, like Buddha said, we would have a national abortion law that looked a lot like RvW because that's were most of the public is and this wouldn't be a 40 yr controversy.

It amazes me that both parties see the system as “Rigged” truly fascinating.

[Edman85]

One thing to be mindful of when being tooooo flippant on the pro-choice side.

Some of the people who are most ardent on the pro-life side, I have found, are adoptees or born to a single mom. One of my best friends growing up was in the latter boat. They do tend to see abortion as a personal issue because any time somebody slips and demeans the value of the life that is prevented, it is and can be a personal insult.

It is one of the reasons this is a touchy issue on all sides and extreme rhetoric does nothing but alienate. The debates do drive me nuts.

[gehringer_2]

46 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

It amazes me that both parties see the system as “Rigged” truly fascinating.

Well one side sees it's rigged because their majorities still end up with minority representation, and the other side sees it as rigged because they've already done their damndest to make sure the other side can't win at all and are PO'd they still do once in a while. 🤷‍♀️

Edited May 7, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

27 minutes ago, pfife said:

lol ridiculous

of course its ridiculous.  its meant to be as ridiculous as MB's ridiculius provocational shit posting.

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

One thing to be mindful of when being tooooo flippant on the pro-choice side.

Some of the people who are most ardent on the pro-life side, I have found, are adoptees or born to a single mom. One of my best friends growing up was in the latter boat. They do tend to see abortion as a personal issue because any time somebody slips and demeans the value of the life that is prevented, it is and can be a personal insult.

It is one of the reasons this is a touchy issue on all sides and extreme rhetoric does nothing but alienate. The debates do drive me nuts.

IDK, that sounds like a nice argument, but the reality is that any one of million choices either of your biological parents made in their lives could have resulted in the 'you' that you are not being there. You were either born or you weren't. Whether abortion is legal or not is not really what bore in any major way on your particular existence. People are fine to feel however they want of course. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Archie]

4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Ah yes, the old states rights argument. So you don't support a federal law that bans abortions then?

No I don't support a federal law that bans all abortion or a state law that does the same thing.  Women who have a medical reason to terminate a pregnancy should be allowed to have the procedure done.  Same goes with a woman (or girl) who is a victim of rape.  If the crime of rape isn't bad enough, having to carry an unborn child that resulted from that crime for months is a cruel punishment.  I think in those cases we would see a number of suicides.

If common sense would prevail, and there is no chance of it happening with politicians, abortion would be treated like a medical procedure and not a form of birth control.  The mass abortions because somebody doesn't use birth control needs to end and should have never been allowed in the first place. The corner store abortion clinics also need to go away.  Places like Planned Parenthood then could actually help people prepare to be parents instead of being butcher shops for unborn babies.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

they abort babies in china if theyre girls.  

which wasn't 'legal' BTW, so not sure it's germaine to anything here, other than to point out that when abortion is not legal, it does not stop abortion, it simply drives it underground, which for those old enough to remember, was a big reason that a compromise like Roe seemed like a better solution to many at the time.

Edited May 7, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I brought up that if the majority of Americans were outraged by the repeal of RVW then the people would vote out the crazies allowing it. Then I was told How they red states control everything because of the electoral college and its basically rigged. This sounds like complaining the systems rigged. 

A system in which a candidate receives 3 million fewer votes and still wins the election is rigged. A system in which California accounts for 12% of the US population and Wyoming accounts for 0.1% and both have the same 2% representation in the senate is rigged. Republicans haven't represented a majority of the population in the senate since 1996 but have held the majority in the senate 14 years since 1996. All 5 justices overturning Roe were confirmed by a majority Republican senate that did not represent the majority of Americans. That is rigged. Donald Trump lying about unfounded conspiracy theories that the election was stolen is not rigged. The Democrats currently represent 56% of Americans but only hold 50% of the seats. They'd won the popular vote in 7 of the past 8 elections but only won 5 of them. Joe Biden won by 7 million votes but the election really came down to less than 100,000 votes. These are facts and not conspiracies theories. Both sides are not a like on this. 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

A system in which a candidate receives 3 million fewer votes and still wins the election is rigged. A system in which California accounts for 12% of the US population and Wyoming accounts for 0.1% and both have the same 2% representation in the senate is rigged. Republicans haven't represented a majority of the population in the senate since 1996 but have held the majority in the senate 14 years since 1996. All 5 justices overturning Roe were confirmed by a majority Republican senate that did not represent the majority of Americans. That is rigged. Donald Trump lying about unfounded conspiracy theories that the election was stolen is not rigged. The Democrats currently represent 56% of Americans but only hold 50% of the seats. They'd won the popular vote in 7 of the past 8 elections but only won 5 of them. Joe Biden won by 7 million votes but the election really came down to less than 100,000 votes. These are facts and not conspiracies theories. Both sides are not a like on this. 

QFT

[Tigeraholic1]

So the democratic system in the United States is flawed and everyone hates it yet can’t change it. Is that pretty much the some of it?

[Motown Bombers]

10 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So the democratic system in the United States is flawed and everyone hates it yet can’t change it. Is that pretty much the some of it?

Yes the electoral system is flawed because the minority party has too much control. You tell us to vote and we did and our candidate got 3 million more votes and still lost. We have Washington DC that has more people than Wyoming, Vermont and Alaska but no senate representation. We can't make them a state and get two more senators because the system allows a minority party to block it. Democrats in the senate represent 43 million more people than Republicans but have the same number of senators.  Our electoral system punishes us because Democrats are clustered in cities on the coasts. It is an antiquated system and Republicans will refuse to change it because they are the minority party and would have to give up all their control if they changed. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Motown Bombers

[gehringer_2]

18 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So the democratic system in the United States is flawed and everyone hates it yet can’t change it. Is that pretty much the some of it?

exactly. That's the problem with any democratic system. It's inherently only meta-stable. Should any democracy tilt too far out of balance it quickly reaches a synergy where the side in power uses it to consolidate it and the other side is out of luck short of a major upheaval. The conservative minority had a majority just long enough to put in place a court that supports jerrymander, the small states will never cede their excess political allotment by the standard constitutional reform process because they have veto power in it. We are basically screwed as a democracy. I'm old enough not to have to worry too much about living through the complete crisis that is inevitably coming but I feel sorry for my kids. Hopefully they'll have the sense to go somewhere else before it goes completely off the rails.

The only real hope is for the large states to call their own Constitutional convention and go ahead with it whether the small states join or not. Then after they hammer out a new deal the rest can either join or go broke, which they quickly would without the blue states. But it won't happen. The people in the blue states don't have the political imagination, or the confidence that they wouldn't come up with a really half-assed replacement document.

Edited May 7, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

exactly. That's the problem with any democratic system. It's inherently only meta-stable. Should any democracy tilt too far out of balance it quickly reaches a synergy where the side in power uses it to consolidate it and the other side is out of luck short of a major upheaval. The conservative minority had a majority just long enough to put in place a court that supports jerrymander, the small states will never cede their excess political allotment by the standard constitutional reform process because they have veto power in it. We are basically screwed as a democracy. I'm old enough not to have to worry too much about living through the complete crisis that is inevitably coming but I feel sorry for my kids. Hopefully they'll have the sense to go somewhere else before to goes completely off the rails.

When it goes off the rails, I hope California secedes from the union and takes it's 5th largest economy in the world with it. If I'm still alive I'll seek asylum in California.  

Edited May 7, 2022 by Motown Bombers

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

When it goes off the rails, I hope California secedes from the union and takes it's 5th largest economy in the world with it. If I'm still alive I'll seek asylum in California.  

and of course the irony should not be lost that it's the side that already has most of the marbles that feels so aggrieved they needed to storm the Capitol.

[Motown Bombers]

Another thing to point out is Republican states that are losing their grip such as Georgia and Texas are making it more difficult for Democrats to win and take over. They are trying to suppress the vote so they do not lose their stranglehold on them. 

[Motown Bombers]

Lets also not forget the filibuster that the Republicans say should not be removed but was removed for Supreme Court justices because it was more valuable for the Republicans to pack the court with conservative judges. Now they have a conservative court for at least another generation or two and will legislate through the courts. That's a rigged system. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Motown Bombers

[pfife]