CMRivdogs Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Not going to happen since it would mean a change in the constitution. Considering lifespans now vs 1789 it should be worth considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said: Not going to happen since it would mean a change in the constitution. Considering lifespans now vs 1789 it should be worth considering. Same could be said for RVW. Babie being born earlier and surviving has increased 10 fold since 1973. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Same could be said for RVW. Babie being born earlier and surviving has increased 10 fold since 1973. Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that women have had access to safe abortions and aren't forced to give birth? I don't think that means what you think it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that women have had access to safe abortions and aren't forced to give birth? I don't think that means what you think it means. No, women kiiling babies does NOT have an effect on how sceince has allowed us to care for and get bettter at saving preemie babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Same could be said for RVW. Babie being born earlier and surviving has increased 10 fold since 1973. I don't want to jump into that swamp again. But since you brought it up. Who do you trust more to make the decisions on choice. A woman, her physician and possibly (hopefully) her partner. Or a bunch of politicians? Also, I have yet to see any proposed or recently passed legislation that holds the sperm donor in any way responsible for assisting in the process (mandatory support with no exceptions, etc). Until the Pro Life Movement honestly answers those questions, I remain with my position that the decision is between a woman, her physician, and her creator. Hopefully with support from her partner. I refuse to discuss the subject any further. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: Until the Pro Life Movement honestly answers those questions, I remain with my position that the decision is between a woman, her physician, and her creator. Hopefully with support from her partner. This is also the bottom line for me. Abortion laws are always highly discriminatory, only impacting the poor and powerless, and are fundamentally misogynistic as they leave the irresponsible male completely out of consideration, and were largely ineffective when they were in place in the past. I will go so far as to say I would rather have the law ignore the sin (even if I believed that) than have laws exist that are so biased and unfair. I don't question that there are people who have a serious religious view here, but there is also a boatload of hypocritical virtue signalling going on here by amoral pols playing to that audience. Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said: Or a bunch of politicians? You mean the same guys 'splainin about IUDs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) I respect everyones opinion on this. I just think there is a better way to handling unwanted pregnancies. I am also glad we are not like countries in Europe that allow abortions because kids will have Down Syndrome and other unwanted defects like this. Do I have all the answers? Nope, but a reset and evaluation is a great thing. Maybe we can add laws like DNA test to make sure the father is held accountable. Rape, incest, mothers health should have a totally different set of rules in regards to abortion for sure. Off my soapbox and will not bring it up again until the law actually changes. Edited May 13, 2022 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said: No, women kiiling babies does NOT have an effect on how sceince has allowed us to care for and get bettter at saving preemie babies. women are not killing babies. Full stop. If you really thought that then you are an accomplice since you are not taking up arms to put a stop to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 24 minutes ago, oblong said: women are not killing babies. Full stop. If you really thought that then you are an accomplice since you are not taking up arms to put a stop to it. It’s easy for the faithless to frame it that way. No point arguing hollow values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 I remember when there was complaining about not respecting ones faith but apparently that doesn't apply for people who do not want God in their lives. Apparently anyone who doesn't have faith is hollow. Some of the worst things imaginable have been done because of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: It’s easy for the faithless to frame it that way. No point arguing hollow values. that is a ridiculous statement and you know it. Throughout history I can point to plenty of terrible religious values that have been preached to justify war, death and destruction on untold scale. What do you think Kiril and Putin are doing right now? They fully justify the their War as God's will and preach it as morality. So we don't even need to go outside current Christianity to prove the point though the ME certainly shows how easily you can. And I can point to plenty of secularists who have spent lives working to make the world a better place. If history teaches any single thing loud and clear it's that claimed faith is no touchstone for decent moral conscience. So save that kind of sentiment for the person in the next pew. Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 16 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: It’s easy for the faithless to frame it that way. No point arguing hollow values. You know nothing about my faith so that's a dumb thing to say and those who brag about theirs are often the most wicked. You are being a hypocrite or using language you either don't believe in or don't understand. To sit idly by while you know women are "killing babies" would be immoral and make you as guilty as the Germans in the 30's who stood by while they knew Jews were being slaughtered. or maybe it's something besides "killing babies". But you can't admit to that because then it breaks the foundation of your argument you've trapped yourself in. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 BTW, I credit Michael Kinsley for opening my eyes up to that logic. If people truly felt that abortion was "murder" and that a fetus was the very same thing as a baby 2 weeks after the birth, then what does it say about them if they do not try to stop that at all costs? Of course, we tragically know that some of the fanatics do believe that and have murdered and tried to murder women seeking abortions and the doctors... but nearly everyone who opposes abortion and uses those terms does not agree with those actions. I argue it's inconsistent if you truly felt that way. But if they then acquiesce that it's not reallly murder or a baby then they go down the compromise path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, oblong said: BTW, I credit Michael Kinsley for opening my eyes up to that logic. If people truly felt that abortion was "murder" and that a fetus was the very same thing as a baby 2 weeks after the birth, then what does it say about them if they do not try to stop that at all costs? Of course, we tragically know that some of the fanatics do believe that and have murdered and tried to murder women seeking abortions and the doctors... but nearly everyone who opposes abortion and uses those terms does not agree with those actions. I argue it's inconsistent if you truly felt that way. But if they then acquiesce that it's not reallly murder or a baby then they go down the compromise path. I don't claim to have any idea when, to put in purely religious terms, an embryo becomes 'ensouled' but am peace with the idea that it's most definitely not at the point of fertilization and beyond that point the only person I believe who should be properly empowered to decide is the mother carrying it. Way too much moral mischief when any other person or institutions butts into that space with their moral pronouncements. Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 29 minutes ago, oblong said: You know nothing about my faith so that's a dumb thing to say and those who brag about theirs are often the most wicked. You are being a hypocrite or using language you either don't believe in or don't understand. To sit idly by while you know women are "killing babies" would be immoral and make you as guilty as the Germans in the 30's who stood by while they knew Jews were being slaughtered. or maybe it's something besides "killing babies". But you can't admit to that because then it breaks the foundation of your argument you've trapped yourself in. No one is bragging but I believe as do many others that life begins at the point of conception. You may has missed my post earlier that my Grandma was a Holocaust survivor and took my family to MANY Anti-abortion vigils and marches. Don't twist words to sound cute. A baby at 2 weeks inside the womb is still the same baby two weeks after birth. There is no trap, that fetus, embryo is still a BABY. Sorry I am not fire bombing abortion clinics but thats also not what Jesus would have done. He would lead a march or cross a bridge in Selma. Sorry to bring up your faith, I apologize for that. I enjoy your posts most of the time but we will just have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: I believe as do many others that life begins at the point of conception. Serious question then - since you admit this is a belief and not a demonstrable fact, what do you think gives you the right to impose that belief in law on any one else in a religiously free society? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 23 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: No one is bragging but I believe as do many others that life begins at the point of conception. You may has missed my post earlier that my Grandma was a Holocaust survivor and took my family to MANY Anti-abortion vigils and marches. Don't twist words to sound cute. A baby at 2 weeks inside the womb is still the same baby two weeks after birth. There is no trap, that fetus, embryo is still a BABY. Sorry I am not fire bombing abortion clinics but thats also not what Jesus would have done. He would lead a march or cross a bridge in Selma. Sorry to bring up your faith, I apologize for that. I enjoy your posts most of the time but we will just have to agree to disagree. Interesting how 3 of my 4 grandparents lived in Europe during the Holocaust and were all pro choice and never, thankfully, took me to any anti-abortion vigils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Interesting how 3 of my 4 grandparents lived in Europe during the Holocaust and were all pro choice and never, thankfully, took me to any anti-abortion vigils. She had her parents and brothers and sisters gassed not sure what that means for your grandparents but cool story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: She had her parents and brothers and sisters gassed not sure what that means for your grandparents but cool story. Just interesting how they can look at one party imposing their beliefs on an entire continent and then chose not to do the same. I'm equally unsure what surviving the Holocaust has to do with forcing your beliefs onto people but cool story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 39 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Serious question then - since you admit this is a belief and not a demonstrable fact, what do you think gives you the right to impose that belief in law on any one else in a religiously free society? When does the embryo magically turn into a human day 32 or day 33? Can you show me the exact day an embryo turns into a fetus? And at what exact date does a Fetus morph into a human? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 30 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Interesting how 3 of my 4 grandparents lived in Europe during the Holocaust and were all pro choice and never, thankfully, took me to any anti-abortion vigils. Gee, little did I know I should claim moral superiority for my views since my grandfather's family was massacred in the Armenian Holocaust. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: When does the embryo magically turn into a human day 32 or day 33? Can you show me the exact day an embryo turns into a fetus? And at what exact date does a Fetus morph into a human? Of course not, I've already claimed not to, but I'm not trying to put a particular view into law, you are, so your's is the burden of rational argument to convince other people without invoking your religious beliefs. Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: When does the embryo magically turn into a human day 32 or day 33? Can you show me the exact day an embryo turns into a fetus? And at what exact date does a Fetus morph into a human? I'll let my doctor determine that instead of you or the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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