2023 Michigan Football

[lordstanley]

35 minutes ago, buddha said:

the sportsmanship policy.  

 

Especially since if you ask most people what was Stalion’s clearest violation , it was being on the CMU sideline. But it appears that he was there on behalf of CMU, rather than crashing in secret. In other words, he was a CMU staffer who probably later fed sign information to Michigan about MSU that he picked up during the game. In that care, Michigan’s CMU source is equivalent to Purdue’s OSU and Rutgers sources. 

[Hongbit]

 

[casimir]

27 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Especially since if you ask most people what was Stalion’s clearest violation , it was being on the CMU sideline. But it appears that he was there on behalf of CMU, rather than crashing in secret. In other words, he was a CMU staffer who probably later fed sign information to Michigan about MSU that he picked up during the game. In that care, Michigan’s CMU source is equivalent to Purdue’s OSU and Rutgers sources. 

Did he need to be there to file the “MSU sucks” report?

[Deleterious]

Wait. I have never heard Stalions was working for CMU.  Is that the new working theory?

[Hongbit]

The biggest game of the UM season is 4 days away.  The first real test with a win almost guaranteeing a spot in the playoff.   Yet, not even a peep about the actual game on Saturday and what that means for the team.  

At this point, you are just trolling yourself by getting so caught up in all of this ridiculousness.   

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hongbit

[lordstanley]

33 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Wait. I have never heard Stalions was working for CMU.  Is that the new working theory?

Seems to be. I’ll try to find and post a link to what I’ve read. 

[lordstanley]

25 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

The biggest game of the UM season is 4 days away.  The first real test with a win almost guaranteeing a spot in the playoff.   

Michigan’s not getting in without beating Penn St AND Ohio State. I think it was the case even before the sign stuff, but no chance now for a 1-loss Michigan that doesn’t even win the division. Could probably afford a loss to Maryland or the BIG championship game if they beat the two top 10 teams. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by lordstanley

[RandyMarsh]

If they lose 1 it will depend on the tie breaker on who gets the to represent the East in Indianapolis, if they end up being a 1 loss B1G champion I don't see anyway they get left out regardless of their schedule. Now if they end up being a 1 loss team that doesn't even make their championship game then yeah hard to see them getting in that way. 

[lordstanley]

16 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

If they lose 1 it will depend on the tie breaker on who gets the to represent the East in Indianapolis, if they end up being a 1 loss B1G champion I don't see anyway they get left out regardless of their schedule. Now if they end up being a 1 loss team that doesn't even make their championship game then yeah hard to see them getting in that way. 

If I understand correctly, the tiebreaker in the event of a 3-way tie between Penn St., Ohio St. and  Michigan is the combined record of their West conference opponents. Essentially a B1G strength of schedule. I believe Michigan is two games behind Penn St at this point, with Iowa's good record helping Penn St. and losses by Nebraska and Minnesota last weekend hurting Michigan.

[romad1]

There have been complaints to the NCAA about this...and it was ignored.

[lordstanley]

Suzy Shuster is sick of this and "can't get over the way everyone is basically hanging Jim Harbaugh over this".

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by lordstanley

[Shinzaki]

8 hours ago, Kamakzie said:

Wonder why this was age restricted?

You can see Marcia's knees?

[romad1]

This guy has been amusing

 

[romad1]

As I understand it the president of Fox Sports is a huge M fan and alum.  As is the president of CBS Sports. 

[Edman85]

14 hours ago, romad1 said:

the B1G "sportsmanship policy" that is supposedly being used to hang Jim Harbaugh out on a yardarm.

Do you have the actual text of it? Forgive me for not taking everything from the Michigan echo chamber at face value right now.

BTW, I have cooled off on the "suspend/fire Harbaugh immediately" stuff. Not because my school was dragged in, but the argument that it is a pretty slippery slope to succumb to the mob here. Similar to the reasonable Congresspeople (Porter, Jackson) who voted against expelling Santos last week. From the Extra Points Newsletter

Quote

 

Cards on the table here, in case you weren’t already aware. I grew up in Ohio and have a degree from Ohio State. I still root for Ohio State’s football team, and it’s part of the reason why I try not to write about them very much on this website. It is impossible to avoid #BIAS in journalism, but I do want to avoid obvious conflicts of interest if I can.

That being said….I am coming around to the idea that the probable best course of action for the Big Ten is to do…nothing. At least, not until the NCAA completes its investigation process.

I understand that the football coaches and athletic directors in the Big Ten are furious, and have indicated to Commissioner Tony Petitti that they believe immediate action is needed not just to punish Michigan, but to deter other programs from taking ethical or procedural shortcuts. A punishment that happens after the national championship game, after the bulk of this Michigan roster graduates or leaves for the NFL, and even potentially after Jim Harbaugh leaves for the NFL, is hardly much of a punishment.

I get all of that, and think those arguments have merit.

But there are also mutually agreed upon procedures for investigating and punishing programs and coaches. Is the NCAA investigative process hilariously slow and ineffective? Yes. Is it another glaring example of how completely stupid Big Time College Sports governance is? Absolutely.

But it is what everybody agreed on ahead of time. To deviate from that procedure just because every coach and AD is furious sets a very dangerous precedent, in my opinion, and not just because everybody at Michigan is either a lawyer or a cosplaying lawyer who will attempt you beat you with a dogeared copy of Robert's Rules of Order. It’s also because there’s going to be something that is going to infuriate league administrators almost every year (like say, a fight in a stadium tunnel between Michigan and Michigan State football players, or a tampering allegation, or God knows what else), and legislating based on Who Is The Most Mad Online is not the way excellent organizations work.

The only argument for immediate action is that the Big Ten has such overwhelming evidence that a) the sign-stealing operation has so meaningfully damaged the integrity of competition that the conference must act outside the scope of the bylaws and b) Jim Harbaugh knew about the operation. I don’t believe there’s enough information out there right now to support either of those conclusions, especially since it’s clear that other Big Ten schools (in a way permitted by the rules) shared information about Michigan’s signs.

I don’t think Tony Petitti has any good options. Doing nothing saves the league from an embarrassing and potentially highly damaging legal battle, but damages his standing with league presidents and ADs, and may encourage other members to cheat even more. Levying a suspension, or more, could invite ugly legal battles, while also setting the stage for yet another bylaw showdown next year.

In a perfect world, none of any of this stuff would be needed. The sport would have some sort of investigative system that would not need to rely on third parties paying for private investigators, and those investigations would be completed in under 36 months, to have some semblance of a deterring effect.

But we don’t live in a perfect world. So I’m calling private investigators, and so is half of the rest of college sports internet.

Can’t wait to see what new rabbit hole this crazy industry sends me next. Sounds like it might be the vacuum repair industry.

 

Also, there was a lot of stuff in the wake of the Astros scandal that showed it may not have much of an effect. If teams know they have your signs, you can game theory that. It does sound like teams were onto Michigan for a while.

[romad1]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Do you have the actual text of it? Forgive me for not taking everything from the Michigan echo chamber at face value right now.

BTW, I have cooled off on the "suspend/fire Harbaugh immediately" stuff. Not because my school was dragged in, but the argument that it is a pretty slippery slope to succumb to the mob here. Similar to the reasonable Congresspeople (Porter, Jackson) who voted against expelling Santos last week. From the Extra Points Newsletter

 

Also, there was a lot of stuff in the wake of the Astros scandal that showed it may not have much of an effect. If teams know they have your signs, you can game theory that. It does sound like teams were onto Michigan for a while.

Forgive me for not jumping on the opportunity to do research for you. 

[Edman85]

7 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Forgive me for not jumping on the opportunity to do research for you. 

Forgive me for not having time the last couple days...

[Edman85]

Not surprisingly after finding the three page Sportsmanship policy, the Michigan echo chamber, as most college sports or political echo chambers are, was again wrong.

https://bigten.org/documents/2022/11/23/2022_23_Big_Ten_Handbook_Sportsmanship.pdf

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

that showed it may not have much of an effect. If teams know they have your signs, you can game theory that.

No kidding. Like send a play in with a player and sign something else and see if the results change? It ain't exactly rocket science. 

[romad1]

13 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Forgive me for not having time the last couple days...

Hasn't stopped you from offering weak ass hatred of Michigan as fact. 

[casimir]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

No kidding. Like send a play in with a player and sign something else and see if the results change? It ain't exactly rocket science. 

Sounds like that's what TCU did.

I mean, if you figure out an opponent is onto your signs during a game, you alter them in some way right then and there, don't you?  It doesn't matter at that point how they picked up on it.  You've got to do something different.

[romad1]

 

[Edman85]

The sportsmanship policy does not cite specific rules on top of NCAA rules, just provides an enforcement mechanism for the Conference to act when NCAA rules are violated. Sharing among teams is not a violation of NCAA Rules (probably should be). Filming and doing what Stalions did is.

[Edman85]

There IS a "Scouting and Film Exchange" manual I found reference to in an old version of the Big Ten Handbook (The Sportsmanship policy is a three page chapter, Chapter 10, of that book. Coach conduct is Chapter 11).

 

Here is the Big Ten Football Guidelines

https://bigten.org/documents/2021/8/30//Big_Ten_Football_Game_Management_Manual.pdf?id=7262

 

Quote

14. Motion Pictures/Videotapes A. Motion pictures/videotapes shall not be taken for scouting purposes. This is understood to apply to any football game other than one in which the scout's team is participating. Motion pictures/videotapes may be taken on behalf of either or both teams when they are competing. B. When Teams "A" and "B" are in competition, arrangements are made on behalf of Team "A", for example, to record footage of the game and not for Team "B". On request of Team "B", Team "A" shall furnish to Team "B" a copy of all footage, namely, duplicate footage, at actual cost for the duplication to Team "A". C. The Agreement in "B" shall apply in the event that both teams record footage, but if for some reason footage taken by one team or the other are lost or destroyed, the other team shall be duty bound, on proper request, to furnish immediately to the opposing team a copy of the footage. D. Conference universities shall not permit depiction of Conference football games to be shown other than to alumni groups, Conference office personnel and game officials unless accompanied by a member of the university staff. This restriction does not apply to films/tapes of non-Conference games.

 

[romad1]

If B1G boss Pettiti decides to come out and denounces the people who told him this was the "worst scandal" in the history of the B1G today...that would show this guy has a future.   Otherwise, he's an oxygen thief.