Tigeraholic1 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 Just now, Tiger337 said: It says more about the Tigers than about Baez, but I think WAR captured his performance well enough. What part of WAR do you think didn't work for him? Lee, please inlighten a not to savy layman about all the componets that go in to war, I really have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 13 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Lee, please inlighten a not to savy layman about all the componets that go in to war, I really have no idea. I wanted Buddha to explain it since he is an expert on why it doesn't work! Honestly, it is pretty complicated and gets overused. A player gets points for: hitting performance (let's say OPS) playing time (Think about games played so a players doesn't get too many points for a high OPS in few games played) fielding (runs saved based on one of the advanced fielding measures like UZR at Fangraphs) position (extra points for playing a difficult position like shortstop) baserunning(SB, CS, taking extra bases, etc) Add it all together and you arrive at the numbers of wins a player is worth compared to a AAAA player playing in his place. A scrub is 0-1 WAR Average player 2 WAR Good player 3-4 WAR allstar 4-5 WAR MVP 6+ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 That's why I always said it would never catch on for casual fans. YOu need something you can easily quantify to a guy at the game or the bar. Most "old" stats provide that. SOme newer ones are just better extensions of that, like OPS. I mean at some point in WAR's calculation there has to be an opinion about the worth of a metric, right? With most other stats it's just a factual representation of what happened. Maybe it's not as good overall and shouldn't be used by front offices that way but for the casual fan it's good enough. Even if you can use an explanation on defensive metrics like "Well they use lasers and high speed camera data to measure speed of the ball and the players and can figure out what plays an average defender makes".... that's something you can express. Just have to trust they did it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: tonight is why he didn't use Lange for two last night. Does it really matter which game you win? Hinch would say doing it his way he had a chance to win both. If the pen would stop imploding they will justify his strategy. We'll see. I understand this thinking, even though I don't agree with it. The Tigers don't have the type of team where they'll have a lead in the 9th inning very often, so I'd like to see Hinch try to win the game at hand instead of trying to predict what'll happen tomorrow. I think Hinch got very lucky in this case and isn't indictive of how much of a genius he is. And even if the Tigers had a good bullpen, they would have probably won both games regardless of who pitched when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 9 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: This game was an interesting example of how bad umpiring can be without causing much ruckus. The strike calling at the plate was atrocious but he was favoring each side about equally. If you got screwed on a call you could wait for the make-up -- which wouldn't take long..... Ahem ... good call ... https://twitter.com/UmpScorecards/status/1646884274820317184?s=20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: I wanted Buddha to explain it since he is an expert on why it doesn't work! Honestly, it is pretty complicated and gets overused. A player gets points for: hitting performance (let's say OPS) playing time (Think about games played so a players doesn't get too many points for a high OPS in few games played) fielding (runs saved based on one of the advanced fielding measures like UZR at Fangraphs) position (extra points for playing a difficult position like shortstop) baserunning(SB, CS, taking extra bases, etc) Add it all together and you arrive at the numbers of wins a player is worth compared to a AAAA player playing in his place. A scrub is 0-1 WAR Average player 2 WAR Good player 3-4 WAR allstar 4-5 WAR MVP 6+ So are some of the metrics interchangeable? Like to potentially change war rating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: So are some of the metrics interchangeable? Like to potentially change war rating? Different sites have their own metrics which they insert into the framework. FanGraphs and Baseball-reference are pretty close on everything except the fielding. So, if you see discrepancies between the two, it's usually because of fielding. Fielding is still hard to evaluate and is the biggest challenge in evalauting a player's overall contribution. The first thing I look at when a WAR seems too high or too low is fielding. If one stat says player A is a +10 fielder and another stat says he is a -5 fielder, that's a pretty big discrepancy (about 1.5 WAR difference). In that case, you have to decide for yourself whether or not you think he's a good fielder and choose the WAR that makes the most sense. Edited April 14, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: It says more about the Tigers than about Baez, but I think WAR captured his performance well enough. What part of WAR do you think didn't work for him? WAR overrates durability, fielding, and baserunning, ime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 17 minutes ago, buddha said: WAR overrates durability, fielding, and baserunning, ime. I don't think it overrates durability. WAR doesn't say which player is more talented. It states who contributed more to the team winning. The guy who plays 150 games is going to contribute more than the guy who only plays 75 games. But that doesn't mean that the second guy isn't a better overall talent. Fielding, sure. I agree with @Tiger337. There can be a lot of discrepancy between fielding stats. I haven't really heard anyone say that baserunning is overrated before. It's pretty straight forward. Steals are a positive and caught stealing is a negative. A guy that has more net steals is going to contribute more than the guy that doesn't steal. Of course it also covers things like tagging up and taking an extra base and getting thrown out on base. But again, pretty straight forward stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, buddha said: WAR overrates durability, fielding, and baserunning, ime. Durability is important. If you have a player that is frequently injured. he is usually replaced by somebody a lot worse (like Zach Short) and that hurts the team. That is the reason why replacement level is used. If you don't think it's important though, you can use Wins Above Average instead. In Hall of Fame consideration, WAA might be better than WAR. Baserunning is a small part of WAR and not really controverisial. I don't know why it would be considered overrated. Edited April 14, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.