04/27/2023 6:40 pm EDT Baltimore Orioles vs Detroit Tigers

[bobrob2004]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Just cannot do it and expect to win.

Like, you can point the finger at AJ or Chasen Shreve all you want, but a better offense scores more than seven runs tonight. 

But you also cannot say that Hinch didn't manage the bullpen well either.  Just because the offense didn't score more runs doesn't mean Hinch gets a free pass.  

[mtutiger]

35 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

But you also cannot say that Hinch didn't manage the bullpen well either.  Just because the offense didn't score more runs doesn't mean Hinch gets a free pass.  

Hinch doesn't get a free pass. I just don't think this is the biggest reason why they lost tonight's game. It is unrealistic and unsustainable to ask your pitching staff day in and day out to hold teams to less than 4 runs.

It's not an excuse for Shreve or Hinch, but this offense walked more than 10 times and had the bases loaded with less than two outs on three occasions tonight... and walked away with four runs to show for it. No matter how you cut it, that is unacceptable. Better teams would have cashed in on those opportunities and had kept the game competitive, if not won it, despite the failure of the bullpen or management of it.

Edited April 28, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

9 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Probably a good thing the NFL Draft is on to distract folks, because this has to be the most infuriating loss of the season, at least it is for me.

It's probably more common than I realize in the moment, but taking over 10 walks in a game and losing has to be very uncommon. But totally achievable for this crew lol

The Orioles themselves did it a couple weeks ago, and more maddeningly, they got more hits than we did plus a couple of homers with 10 walks and still lost.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA202304150.shtml

[chasfh]

7 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Hinch doesn't get a free pass. I just don't think this is the biggest reason why they lost tonight's game. It is unrealistic and unsustainable to ask your pitching staff day in and day out to hold teams to less than 4 runs.

It's not an excuse for Shreve or Hinch, but this offense walked more than 10 times and had the bases loaded with less than two outs on three occasions tonight... and walked away with four runs to show for it. No matter how you cut it, that is unacceptable. Better teams would have cashed in on those opportunities and had kept the game competitive, if not won it, despite the failure of the bullpen or management of it.

Well, we already knew coming into the season that this team was going to be not only bad, but also not being even close to the team they’ll be trying to compete with in a couple or three years.

In addition to a dying Miggy and a few awful veterans either marking time or simply out of their depth, we have a lot of green guys still getting used to the majors in the first place. Of the 31 guys who have taken the field for us so far, 17 of them have (parts of) only two or three seasons in the majors, including this season, and one more guy is Mason Englert. A couple, maybe a few, of them will make it long term. Most of them won’t.

It’s part of the new process most of us are excited to see finally happen—maddeningly slower than we’d like, especially given the past seven seasons, but there’s only one Detroit Tigers, so it’s all we got.

I’m unhappy about the incompetence, sure, because it sucks to see it happen before my eyes, but I don’t feel like I can carry any of the unhappiness much beyond the game. I get mad in the moment, then I’m over it.

You know me, I’d been existentially angry about this organization for years, and I will do so again if/once it appears the Scott Harris approach has failed and it has to all get blown up all over again. I don’t think that will happen, but that’s what it would take.

[mtutiger]

I get the bigger picture stuff. But in the micro, even with them being bad, that was a winnable game and they didn't get it done.

[chasfh]

Granted.

[bobrob2004]

8 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Hinch doesn't get a free pass. I just don't think this is the biggest reason why they lost tonight's game. It is unrealistic and unsustainable to ask your pitching staff day in and day out to hold teams to less than 4 runs.

It's not an excuse for Shreve or Hinch, but this offense walked more than 10 times and had the bases loaded with less than two outs on three occasions tonight... and walked away with four runs to show for it. No matter how you cut it, that is unacceptable. Better teams would have cashed in on those opportunities and had kept the game competitive, if not won it, despite the failure of the bullpen or management of it.

If anything that makes Hinch more responsible for the loss, since he's also in charge of the lineup construction as well as other offensive strategies (bunting, stealing, hit and run, pinch hitter/runner, etc.).  

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

If anything that makes Hinch more responsible for the loss, since he's also in charge of the lineup construction as well as other offensive strategies (bunting, stealing, hit and run, pinch hitter/runner, etc.).  

Don't the players have some agency in all of this?

AJ isn't out there taking ABs.... 

[oblong]

One thing I keep in mind when trying to get too low is that at this stage of development the goal for this organization is to find out who can play and who can't.  It's a minor league team in that sense.  You have to give the players the chance to show their work, for better or worse.  Given that most of the players are cast offs we know the result won't be good.

 

[bobrob2004]

38 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Don't the players have some agency in all of this?

AJ isn't out there taking ABs.... 

Sure.  They had 8 hits and 10 walks and should have scored more than 4 runs last night.  Some of the blame goes to the hitters, and some goes to Hinch.  

[mtutiger]

23 minutes ago, oblong said:

One thing I keep in mind when trying to get too low is that at this stage of development the goal for this organization is to find out who can play and who can't.  It's a minor league team in that sense.  You have to give the players the chance to show their work, for better or worse.  Given that most of the players are cast offs we know the result won't be good.

 

It's not even the younger, more development pieces that pissed me off last night.... like, I get that it's going to be up and down with all of the younger players like Tork, Greene, Baddoo, Vierling, Maton, etc., but they are having to dedicate two of their lineup spots to Miguel and Schoop, both of whom have track records and both of whom have continually demonstrated that there's no more juice left in the tank at this point. And both of those guys' fingerprints were all over that loss last night.

Schoop is probably on borrowed time at this point and will likely be gone sooner rather than later, but Miguel? I know we have to do the farewell tour and all, but there's gotta come a point when the lack of results start to matter, right?

I don't expect this team to contend or to even be good, but that doesn't excuse the result or make it any less frustrating.

Edited April 28, 2023 by mtutiger

[oblong]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

It's not even the younger, more development pieces that pissed me off last night.... like, I get that it's going to be up and down with all of the younger players like Tork, Greene, Baddoo, Vierling, Maton, etc., but they are having to dedicate two of their lineup spots to Miguel and Schoop, both of whom have track records and both of whom have continually demonstrated that there's no more juice left in the tank at this point. And both of those guys' fingerprints were all over that loss last night.

Schoop is probably on borrowed time at this point and will likely be gone sooner rather than later, but Miguel? I know we have to do the farewell tour and all, but there's gotta come a point when the lack of results start to matter, right?

I don't expect this team to contend or to even be good, but that doesn't excuse the result or make it any less frustrating.

regarding Miguel.... I agree.  The org has all kinds of crap planned for him.  It's a tough spot.  Make him DH, a PH.... bat him ninth..... do something to negate his negative impact.  Give him 1 AB a game so he can tip his cap.  If they were ever going to cut him they would have after 3000.  But they have the Miggy Tracker and the bobbleheads and the ticket packages...

 

[casimir]

58 minutes ago, oblong said:

regarding Miguel.... I agree.  The org has all kinds of crap planned for him.  It's a tough spot.  Make him DH, a PH.... bat him ninth..... do something to negate his negative impact.  Give him 1 AB a game so he can tip his cap.  If they were ever going to cut him they would have after 3000.  But they have the Miggy Tracker and the bobbleheads and the ticket packages...

 

They've played 24 games so far.  Cabrera has started as DH 13 times, 3 of those hitting 6ht and 10 of those hitting 7th.  He's pinch hit once, that game winning single up the middle against a drawn in San Francisco infield.

My guess is that this is going to be pretty much the kind of usage that we see out of him.  He'll play roughly half of the games, DHing, hitting 6th or 7th.  Maybe it changes a bit if/when Schoop leaves and/or Meadows returns (which would probably push Carpenter/Meadows to DH more).

Its entirely possible that the walk off single vs San Francisco is his peak moment of this season.  I suppose he might hit a home run or two.  But as far as a game impact like vs the Giants, we're probably not going to see anything like that again from him.

[oblong]

A HOF career ending with "Great, 2 men on.... oh crap, Miggy's up.... hope he strikes out so there's no DP"

[mtutiger]

17 minutes ago, casimir said:

They've played 24 games so far.  Cabrera has started as DH 13 times, 3 of those hitting 6ht and 10 of those hitting 7th.  He's pinch hit once, that game winning single up the middle against a drawn in San Francisco infield.

My guess is that this is going to be pretty much the kind of usage that we see out of him.  He'll play roughly half of the games, DHing, hitting 6th or 7th.  Maybe it changes a bit if/when Schoop leaves and/or Meadows returns (which would probably push Carpenter/Meadows to DH more).

Its entirely possible that the walk off single vs San Francisco is his peak moment of this season.  I suppose he might hit a home run or two.  But as far as a game impact like vs the Giants, we're probably not going to see anything like that again from him.

People hate beating the horse dead on the Miguel thing mostly because of its inevitability, but one area where he hurts that isn't talked about enough is the Harris/Hinch emphasis on matchups/versatility.

We can debate the effectiveness of the strategy all we want, but last night was a good example of the limits of it, with Baez out and an injury to Carpenter, having to carry Miguel takes a situation where options are stressed and makes it even worse.

[SoCalTiger]

Miggy is almost an automatic out and sometimes two with double plays. Even good teams would have trouble with that.  Someone need to have a tough conversation or his pride needs to come to the realization he is embarrassing himself. 
 

Schoop needs to go. Now. 
 

Sadly I don’t think Meadows in coming back. 
 

we are stuck playing the kids  and hoping some turn to consistent major league players so quit wasting time with veterans who can’t play and stop the position musical chairs so the newbies can settle in and improve their defense  one multi position player should be enough to fill in when needed.  

 

 

 

[RandyMarsh]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

A HOF career ending with "Great, 2 men on.... oh crap, Miggy's up.... hope he strikes out so there's no DP"

Yep sad, what makes it even sadder is that it's not like this is just a 1 or even 2 season thing. This is now 7 seasons of sub par at best to atrocious at worst seasons. In that time he's only hit 61 HRs total, which is just insane to think about. 

 

[tiger2022]

2 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

Sure.  They had 8 hits and 10 walks and should have scored more than 4 runs last night.  Some of the blame goes to the hitters, and some goes to Hinch.  

I am not much of a Hinch fan, but what exactly should he have done differently?  He has a roster and he has to put those players out there.  Telling each guy to "go get 'em" before they step in the batter's box isn't going to help them become effective players.  Ultimately it is on the player to either succeed or fail.  No manager in the world is going to suddenly make a roster of cast offs and should be AAA players into winners.

[tiger2022]

Miggy struggles to even get the ball out of the infield.  

I can see him finishing up the season on the IL...maybe bring him back for the last home series and let him play in those meaningless games.

He has been a below average to one of the worst in the league when position value comes into play since 2017.  A negative 2.6 WAR since then. 

Prediction: .134 Avg, 0 home runs, 23 hits.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

People hate beating the horse dead on the Miguel thing mostly because of its inevitability, but one area where he hurts that isn't talked about enough is the Harris/Hinch emphasis on matchups/versatility.

We can debate the effectiveness of the strategy all we want, but last night was a good example of the limits of it, with Baez out and an injury to Carpenter, having to carry Miguel takes a situation where options are stressed and makes it even worse.

Yes, I mentioned it before, they are essentially playing with a 25 man roster and Cabrera.  Cabrera isn't going anywhere this season, we all understand that.  And so when the lineup struggles, when players don't meet reasonable expectations, the rostering of Cabrera and his free fallen skills magnifies.

@gehringer_2 teased something like this elsewhere.  What do the Tigers do if they find themselves around a playoff race around the deadline and teams call on Rodriguez?  But what do the Tigers do if somehow or another that playoff situation presents itself, the lineup has figured out how to score runs, but Cabrera is clearly the weak link?  They've pretty much got to shut him down, don't they?

[tiger2022]

That will remain a hypothetical question in all likelihood, because they are going to be right in the race for the worst record in the league.  They will be 15-20 games out by the All Star break.

[bobrob2004]

28 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

I am not much of a Hinch fan, but what exactly should he have done differently?  He has a roster and he has to put those players out there.  Telling each guy to "go get 'em" before they step in the batter's box isn't going to help them become effective players.  Ultimately it is on the player to either succeed or fail.  No manager in the world is going to suddenly make a roster of cast offs and should be AAA players into winners.

Miggy and Schoop both had 5 AB in last night's game.  Hinch could have easily put a pinch hitter for one or both of them.  McKinstry had 2 hits and Hinch decides to take him out of the game.  Did I miss something?  Did he get injured or something? 

Maybe he pinch hits for them and they still lose.  But nothing he did in last night's game made any sense.  

[Tigerbomb13]

Since 2017 and through the end of this year, Cabrera will have made $212 million and his total WAR so far is -2.6 in that time. I know it’s been beaten to death about how bad he is, but it’s astounding to think about it this way. 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

That will remain a hypothetical question in all likelihood, because they are going to be right in the race for the worst record in the league.  They will be 15-20 games out by the All Star break.

Theoretically its been a good fictional season if you're in the right hypothetical mindset.

[tiger2022]

1 hour ago, bobrob2004 said:

Miggy and Schoop both had 5 AB in last night's game.  Hinch could have easily put a pinch hitter for one or both of them.  McKinstry had 2 hits and Hinch decides to take him out of the game.  Did I miss something?  Did he get injured or something? 

Maybe he pinch hits for them and they still lose.  But nothing he did in last night's game made any sense.  

I understand your frustration, I would like Hinch gone just because I think he is super shady, but the roster is constructed for failure.  Sure, it's easy to say they should have pinched hit for both of them, but the guys coming off the bench aren't exactly top tier hitters; most of these guys wouldn't have a shot at even being on rosters of the other MLB teams.  A chef can't magically make rotten food into a gourmet dinner.