Summer 2023 Off-Season Thread

[slothfacekilla]

 

 

[lordstanley]

I’m a bit disappointed that Yzerman didn’t specifically tell Tater and me by name to chill out. 
 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by lordstanley

[AlaskanTigersFan]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

It's not that we should just make a trade for the sake of it. My initial ideal of offering both first round picks to get Debrincat was off-base and ridiculous. But so where the deals that said we should just offer up a 2nd and Zadina and somehow that would get it done. It's somewhere in the middle of that. The same thing goes for William Nylander, who is a superior player to Debrincat. We can't sell the entire farm to get Nylander. If we aren't on his list of teams he won't play for, the call should certainly be placed and if he's the guy Toronto is moving to get under the cap, I think an offer should be made as he fits both need and timeline.

We need goal scoring in the worst way possible. We have an up-and-coming defense that should be good enough to carry us into the playoffs and beyond. Outside of Raymond, who is already on the roster, and possibly Nate Danielson, who do we have in the pipeline that is any kind of serious scoring threat? Who is a guy that is going to be on this roster in the next 2-4 years that will be a 30+ goal scorer and 60+ point a season guy?

As @lordstanley said, we don't just pay Yzerman to find average NHL players who can score 15 goals, get you 20 assists, and sign them to 3x$3.5 type of deals. We want him to be prudent and smart about signing those types of players who we need to round out our roster's depth. But we also need him to be bold and smartly aggressive. We need him to make impact, franchise changing moves that will improve this team and accelerate our timeline to being a contender. In our case, we need those moves made to add scoring and goal totals to our roster. If we had gotten any amount of lottery luck and landed ourselves a Connor Bedard, Quinton Byfield, Jack Hughes type of player in the draft this conversation would be different. But we didn't, and alas here we are talking about making a bold trade for an Alex Debrincat or William Nylander type of player.

I don't want to mortgage the farm and future for one guy. I also don't want to make the playoffs just for the sake of it. Kenny did that and I hated it and wanted him fired for it. I wanted a complete tank job and rebuild after Kenny left and I got it. That said, I also don't want to be sitting her 2-3 years from now in year 7 of a rebuild having not made any significant progress to being a Cup-contending team, with an over 30 year old Dylan Larkin on the roster and trying to build around that. We pay Yzerman to be both smart and bold as needed. Adding a Nylander or Debrincat can both and accelerate the timeline of our rebuild.

I think Yzerman is doing this correctly. Al Avila quit the rebuild too early. Now the Tigers are stuck in Purgatory........

Yzerman needed to use his top 5 draft picks this year in a "deep" draft. With the way our farm team was and especially now after adding 5 more good players, we are pretty well stocked. I could totally see some of these players that we signed this off-season traded at the deadline and allow prospects to come up. I fully expect the Red Wings to be really aggressive next year in FA and trades. I will be very surprised if we use any of our 1st or 2nd round picks next year that we have. I think between trades and FA next year as well as our prospects coming up, we are in great shape going forward..... This was always going to be the last wait and see year. We are set up perfectly for next year and beyond to make some big noise........

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

It's not that we should just make a trade for the sake of it. My initial ideal of offering both first round picks to get Debrincat was off-base and ridiculous. But so where the deals that said we should just offer up a 2nd and Zadina and somehow that would get it done. It's somewhere in the middle of that. The same thing goes for William Nylander, who is a superior player to Debrincat. We can't sell the entire farm to get Nylander. If we aren't on his list of teams he won't play for, the call should certainly be placed and if he's the guy Toronto is moving to get under the cap, I think an offer should be made as he fits both need and timeline.

We need goal scoring in the worst way possible. We have an up-and-coming defense that should be good enough to carry us into the playoffs and beyond. Outside of Raymond, who is already on the roster, and possibly Nate Danielson, who do we have in the pipeline that is any kind of serious scoring threat? Who is a guy that is going to be on this roster in the next 2-4 years that will be a 30+ goal scorer and 60+ point a season guy?

As @lordstanley said, we don't just pay Yzerman to find average NHL players who can score 15 goals, get you 20 assists, and sign them to 3x$3.5 type of deals. We want him to be prudent and smart about signing those types of players who we need to round out our roster's depth. But we also need him to be bold and smartly aggressive. We need him to make impact, franchise changing moves that will improve this team and accelerate our timeline to being a contender. In our case, we need those moves made to add scoring and goal totals to our roster. If we had gotten any amount of lottery luck and landed ourselves a Connor Bedard, Quinton Byfield, Jack Hughes type of player in the draft this conversation would be different. But we didn't, and alas here we are talking about making a bold trade for an Alex Debrincat or William Nylander type of player.

I don't want to mortgage the farm and future for one guy. I also don't want to make the playoffs just for the sake of it. Kenny did that and I hated it and wanted him fired for it. I wanted a complete tank job and rebuild after Kenny left and I got it. That said, I also don't want to be sitting her 2-3 years from now in year 7 of a rebuild having not made any significant progress to being a Cup-contending team, with an over 30 year old Dylan Larkin on the roster and trying to build around that. We pay Yzerman to be both smart and bold as needed. Adding a Nylander or Debrincat can both and accelerate the timeline of our rebuild.

no offense, but you DID want to mortgage the farm and future for one guy.  you wanted to trade 9, 17, AND PLAYERS AND FUTURE PICKS for debrincat.  last year you wanted to trade multiple first round picks to trade up for shane wright.  you have advocated mortgaging the future for a couple years now for every shiny new toy that becomes available.

ottawa did that last year and how did it work out?

tater, you of all people, the man who was advocating for kenny holland's public defenstration for years should know the horrible state of the team when yzerman got here.  one of the worst teams of all team, horrible farm system, almost no tradeable assets, full of terrible contracts.

this was not seattle.  not vegas.  this was the bottom of the bottom.

the "BUY ALL THE FREE AGENTS" crowd wants us to be vancouver.  i dont.

[jz68]

Seems strange to me that we couldn't even get a 7th round pick for Zadina.  I'm sure someone will pick him up so it seems like there would have been a team willing to give up a last round pick just to make sure someone else wasn't able to snatch him up.   

Edit:  After seeing that Zadina has two, not one, year left on his contract, I can see why no teams were in a hurry to trade for him. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by jz68

[Motor City Sonics]

Zadina is one of the biggest busts in Wings history.   

Kenny Holland really did suck after the other teams started scouting Europe. 

[gehringer_2]

5 hours ago, jz68 said:

Seems strange to me that we couldn't even get a 7th round pick for Zadina.  I'm sure someone will pick him up so it seems like there would have been a team willing to give up a last round pick just to make sure someone else wasn't able to snatch him up.   

Edit:  After seeing that Zadina has two, not one, year left on his contract, I can see why no teams were in a hurry to trade for him. 

I assume in hockey if they pick him up they have to pick up the contract - unlike baseball where you get a waived player for the minimum? If that's true he's stuck here. Also makes the contract a pretty terrible decision.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

49 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Zadina is one of the biggest busts in Wings history.   

Kenny Holland really did suck after the other teams started scouting Europe. 

My singular memory about Zadina was on a PP one day. Pretty sure the Wings were trailing and needed the goal. They gave Zadina a PP shift and the 4 other Wings went all in for him. They must have set him up for at least 7 SOG from the slot, and he put every single damn one into the middle of the goalie;s chest. It was an encapsulation of the team having gone out of their way to help him succeed and his inability to justify it.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

32 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I assume in hockey if they pick him up they have to pick up the contract - unlike baseball where you get a waived player for the minimum? If that's true he's stuck here. Also makes the contract a pretty terrible decision.

zadina was the #6 pick in the draft.  signing him to a small bridge contract was the right thing to do.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

zadina was the #6 pick in the draft.  signing him to a small bridge contract was the right thing to do.

It's NHL, not the NBA, IDK if I'd call 3x$1.8M/yr small by NHL standards. It's about the middle of the RW salary list and he's been less than a middling player.

Of course maybe he was just being diplomatic but Yzerman was still holding that he thinks Zadina can make it in the NHL Asking to be traded sort of tells you he doesn't want to play for Lalonde though, which could make it tough for him if no-one picks him up and he has to come to RW camp.

 

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It's NHL, not the NBA, IDK if I'd call 3x$1.8M/yr small by NHL standards. It's about the middle of the RW salary list and he's been less than a middling player.

Of course maybe he was just being diplomatic but Yzerman was still holding that he thinks Zadina can make it in the NHL Asking to be traded sort of tells you he doesn't want to play for Lalonde though, which could make it tough for him if no-one picks him up and he has to come to RW camp.

 

that's a small, and fair, bridge contract for the former #6 pick in the draft.  and everyone said so at the time.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

that's a small, and fair, bridge contract for the former #6 pick in the draft.  and everyone said so at the time.

LOL - 'everybody said  so at the time' about the pick too. Still wasted money if he doesn't play for them, just as wasted as the pick was. You can't really separate the two.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

Still wasted money if he doesn't play for them, just as wasted as the pick was. You can't really separate the two.

i dont even know what that means.

the pick was obviously a mistake.  but ken holland made it, what did we expect?

did you think the rasmussen bridge contract was bad at the time?  he was just as bad as zadina during his first few years too.

[MichiganCardinal]

I’m tired of being patient (in more sports than one), but I haven’t lost any confidence in Yzerman.

This isn’t Avila, where gross mismanagement was happening year-in and year-out, on an every move basis. Nothing SY has done screams “WTF”. It’s frustrating that the Wings can’t luck out in the lottery, because one win and we are probably in a much better spot than we are now. You can’t deny that we are improving, it’s just at a snail’s pace.

I take his comments at face value. I think there is something to be said for not wanting to turn into the Wild, Predators, Canucks, or Oilers, just good enough to make the playoffs while not good enough to make it past round two. I want to compete for the Cup and I’m okay with it taking another year or two to get to that point.

[gehringer_2]

damn - just lost a post

At any rate - i wouldn't compare Zadina and Ras at any point in their careers. Ras was hurt half the year before they resigned him but in 21-22 the improvement was obvious. Plus he has more potential because of his size to contribure to the team Yzerman wanted to build.

Yzerman still holds that he could turn into a decent player. We are probbly going to get to find out because odds are he will be back at camp.

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[lordstanley]

Didn't work out, in spectacularly bad fashion, but can't say I wasn't cheering hard on draft day. Especially when combined with later picks Veleno, Berggren and McIsaac.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2776599-filip-zadina-picked-6th-by-red-wings-twitter-praises-easy-selection

The Detroit Red Wings picked Halifax Mooseheads winger Filip Zadina with the sixth overall selection in the 2018 NHL draft Friday at the American Airlines Center in Dallas, Texas.

Let's check out some Twitter reaction about the first-round choice:

Zadina enjoyed a terrific debut campaign in the QMJHL. The versatile forward racked up 44 goals and 38 assists for 82 points in 57 games. He added 12 points in nine playoff appearances.

North American Central Scouting chief scout Mark Seidel praised Zadina's playmaking skill set during a January interview with Daniel Nugent-Bowman of Sportsnet.

"He's dynamic. He can control the game. He shows he can take the puck and dominate at times," Seidel said. "He showed his skating ability (in the 2018 CHL Top Prospects Game). Every night in Halifax he does that, basically. He's going to be an elite scorer. But he also has good vision. Both those things translate well to the NHL."

It's hard to know exactly how soon Zadina will be ready to make the NHL jump. His play in the top Czech league showcased the progress he needed to make before becoming a full-time pro, but there's no doubt he's made serious strides during his year with Halifax.

The Red Wings will likely bring the winger, who can play on either the left or right side, to training camp and let him play in at least a handful of preseason games. From there, they can decide whether to keep him for a nine-game tryout stint or send him back to the Mooseheads for another year of seasoning.

Regardless, he projects as a future top-line forward who could lead Detroit in scoring a couple of times once he becomes established in the NHL. If he does make an immediate jump, he'll be joining an offense that ranked 28th in scoring last season.

 

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Didn't work out, in spectacularly bad fashion,

yzerman talks about a guys having the will to play in the NHL. That is what Zadina lacks mostly. The inability to finish is perplexing, but he could still be a nice two way contributor if he just played harder, but he doesn't. You get a shift here and there where you see flashes, but then the light goes dim. Now maybe he just doesn't have the physical constitution to go hard every shift at NHL level (i.e. pain level) and that never showed in juniors when he was better than most guys he played against and didn't have to go full tilt 100% of the time. 

[buddha]

i think zadina plays very hard, and he improved a lot on defense (starting from zero).  but he's small, not particularly fast, and cant shoot the puck anywhere but at the goalie.  his biggest weakness was supposed to be his biggest strength: shooting.

ras wasnt injured when he was stuck in the minors because he sucked.  and he sucked again when he made it up.  now he looks like he could be a valuable third liner or maybe even a second line player if he can get into the corners.  but you talk about ras's injuries but not zadina's?  the guy has been hurt most of his career.

[Shinzaki]

I remember Fred Williams...that was bust..and a half.  I think Rasmussen's development was slowed by their insistence on molding him into a 3C.  He's far better on the wing.  His play really improved once they moved him there..in fact the team immediately fell out of the playoff chase after he got hurt.  Looking forward to seeing what he can do in a top 6 role

[gehringer_2]

The average LW in the NHL is 6' 3/4". Zadina a 6-0 190. He's a whole 3 lb less than freaking Conner McDavid. He seems smaller because he plays smaller. If he's going to play for Yzerman that's what he has to change.

And injuries kill careers, no doubt about it.  

Edited July 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

50 minutes ago, Shinzaki said:

 I think Rasmussen's development was slowed by their insistence on molding him into a 3C.  He's far better on the wing.

He's gotten stronger on his skates - which as Buddha notes - has improved his play in the corners.

[buddha]

[lordstanley]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

I wasn’t exactly sure what the tweet meant so I listened to the full 2 minutes. Friedman says the Sens and DeBrincat aren’t happy with each other right now. But know they need to grind through to put this behind them. DeBrincat wants to go to Detroit and the thinking is if Ottawa and Detroit can agree on a trade he will sign with the Wings. That’s the hold up right now as Ottawa and Detroit haven’t been aligned but they’re really not that far apart. Not going to get anything out of the Isles and Lamorello. Talks with Anaheim were warming up but seem to have cooled. Vegas May have come and gone. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by lordstanley

[Dan Gilmore]

So Debrincat and the Wings are aligned on a new contract? It’s just a case of Ottawa wanting more than the Wings are willing to give up? They want our first round one pick next year and a decent player or two, and the Wings are offering pick #29 and maybe a lesser player? 

[gehringer_2]

19 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

So Debrincat and the Wings are aligned on a new contract? It’s just a case of Ottawa wanting more than the Wings are willing to give up? They want our first round one pick next year and a decent player or two, and the Wings are offering pick #29 and maybe a lesser player? 

Always good to try to get a team to bid against itself if you can. Have to hope Yzerman won't