Thoughts about rebuilding

[mtutiger]

9 minutes ago, kdog said:

And then a bunch of guys who were already on the roster had great seasons in 2006...Inge, Granderson, Monroe, etc.

Bonderman was healthy and good; Verlander and Zumaya because stars for one year; Kenny Rogers was signed to a free agent deal.

If you look at it, a whole bunch of guys became decent players, a few stars emerged, and their pitching was great. But they didn't have 6 guys with an ops below .600. Maybe it's more important that you raise the floor of the team. 

In detail, can you explain which stars analagous to Pudge or Magglio you would have signed this past offseason, and to what terms, and how you would expect that to have effected a change on the overall results?

The situation is what it is... it's easy to sit on a message board and talk about bringing in free agents like it's rolling down to Meijer and buying a six pack of Two Hearted Ale, a little harder in reality when free agents have agency and when bringing in the mediocre types require significant overpays.

Edited June 10, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

14 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

In detail, can you explain which stars analagous to Pudge or Magglio you would have signed this past offseason, and to what terms, and how you would expect that to have effected a change on the overall results?

The situation is what it is... it's easy to sit on a message board and talk about bringing in free agents like it's rolling down to Meijer and buying a six pack of Two Hearted Ale, a little harder in reality when free agents have agency and when bringing in the mediocre types require significant overpays.

I would add that this doesn't absolve Harris from trying different things to effect a different outcome. But aside from the fact that mediocre free agents aren't exactly guarantees (see Wil Myers, Jordan Lyles), he also didn't have a ton of tradable assets going into this past offseason either. One hopes that the players he acquired, particularly Malloy, turn into some value.

After seven years of losing, it's understandable why people are angry about the state of the franchise and wish it could be turned around overnight. Just wish there was a little more recognition that, by any objective measure, the Tigers weren't exactly positioned for a big offseason after 2022... and that has as much to do with the players not playing or playing to their potential as it does the owner or team president 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, kdog said:

Maybe it's more important that you raise the floor of the team. 

Doing that with the everyday lineup might have them in the division lead right now.

[Sports_Freak]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

Doing that with the everyday lineup might have them in the division lead right now.

The scary thing is last year and early this season, our pitching kept us in games. Now, the pitching seems to be faltering. Maybe it's the pressure of having to be perfect because of our inept offense? Pitchers know giving up a few runs means a sure loss?

[RatkoVarda]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Just wish there was a little more recognition that, by any objective measure, the Tigers weren't exactly positioned for a big offseason after 2022...

what a wonderful self-fulfilling prophecy: this team sucks bad, so it makes sense that we spent no money on free agents to improve it.

how is that not the same argument that can be made this winter? we are not ready to spend because - you guessed it - the team sucks bad, in part because we spent no money on free agents to improve it.

Harris has a 2023 payroll less than the major league average and is $13M less than last year when they had a historically bad offense.

as a a fan, it is NOT my job to correctly identify the players that can help this team in free agency, the draft, through trades, Rule 5 draft or any other way. Harris and Co. are paid - literally - millions of dollars to do that.

what would this team look like with Jean Segura, Wil Myers and Brian Anderson? I have no effing clue!

solutions are NOT coming from the farm. Through 2024, Keith might be up as a major league starter.

but everyone else (Malloy, Meadows, Jung, ...) looks like more of what we have a lot of (outside of Green and maybe Baez): 1-2 WAR bench, platoon, and complimentary guys.

I also see you stopped referencing the Rangers pointless FA spending spree in the winter of 2021, now that they are in 1st place.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The scary thing is last year and early this season, our pitching kept us in games. Now, the pitching seems to be faltering. Maybe it's the pressure of having to be perfect because of our inept offense? Pitchers know giving up a few runs means a sure loss?

In the BP we are seeing a little bit of normal regression to the mean - Lange is fine but I think he was pitching over his head there for a while. I would like to see one more power arm in the pen to pair with Foley. That was supposed to be Cisnero, but it appears Jose's stuff is going downhill.

[casimir]

12 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The scary thing is last year and early this season, our pitching kept us in games. Now, the pitching seems to be faltering. Maybe it's the pressure of having to be perfect because of our inept offense? Pitchers know giving up a few runs means a sure loss?

The lack of rotation depth was staring the team in the face from the beginning.  I don't think it was quite obvious to a lot of folks.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

The lack of rotation depth was staring the team in the face from the beginning.  I don't think it was quite obvious to a lot of folks.

a couple of good starts by Faedo and Wentz made it seem less bad than it was but both of those guys need to be in MiLB developing more repertoire before either has hope of having consistent MLB success. Englert had come up and pitched over his head as well, which also probably wasn't sustainable.

It's totally schizophrenic how every move this team make on the pitching side yields more than we have right to expect while everything they touch on the hitting side other than Greene seems to just die.....

[kdog]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I would add that this doesn't absolve Harris from trying different things to effect a different outcome. But aside from the fact that mediocre free agents aren't exactly guarantees (see Wil Myers, Jordan Lyles), he also didn't have a ton of tradable assets going into this past offseason either. One hopes that the players he acquired, particularly Malloy, turn into some value.

After seven years of losing, it's understandable why people are angry about the state of the franchise and wish it could be turned around overnight. Just wish there was a little more recognition that, by any objective measure, the Tigers weren't exactly positioned for a big offseason after 2022... and that has as much to do with the players not playing or playing to their potential as it does the owner or team president 

I think Harris clearly miscalculated that the 'back of the baseball card' stats would revert for certain guys on this team. Or it's an easy way to blame your predecessor. He can create make work out of showing how bad the roster is and adding more time to the new rebuild.

They chose to go with internal solutions at 2nd, 3rd, and catcher. The free agent class was terrible I won't argue that. But making the choice to keep most of the same everyday lineup has been disastrous. Even with a fully loaded Riley Greene, the offense is still at best 27th in mlb.

It sent a bad message to me as a fan. And watching them do nothing right now makes it even more frustrating. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by kdog

[Toddwert]

56 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

what a wonderful self-fulfilling prophecy: this team sucks bad, so it makes sense that we spent no money on free agents to improve it.

how is that not the same argument that can be made this winter? we are not ready to spend because - you guessed it - the team sucks bad, in part because we spent no money on free agents to improve it.

Harris has a 2023 payroll less than the major league average and is $13M less than last year when they had a historically bad offense.

as a a fan, it is NOT my job to correctly identify the players that can help this team in free agency, the draft, through trades, Rule 5 draft or any other way. Harris and Co. are paid - literally - millions of dollars to do that.

what would this team look like with Jean Segura, Wil Myers and Brian Anderson? I have no effing clue!

solutions are NOT coming from the farm. Through 2024, Keith might be up as a major league starter.

but everyone else (Malloy, Meadows, Jung, ...) looks like more of what we have a lot of (outside of Green and maybe Baez): 1-2 WAR bench, platoon, and complimentary guys.

I also see you stopped referencing the Rangers pointless FA spending spree in the winter of 2021, now that they are in 1st place.

Thank you… that’s why i always hated the who should have they signed argument…. It’s not my job i dont know what’s available….hell if its was up to me id give Judge 45 million a year 

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

a couple of good starts by Faedo and Wentz made it seem less bad than it was but both of those guys need to be in MiLB developing more repertoire before either has hope of having consistent MLB success. Englert had come up and pitched over his head as well, which also probably wasn't sustainable.

It's totally schizophrenic how every move this team make on the pitching side yields more than we have right to expect while everything they touch on the hitting side other than Greene seems to just die.....

is there really anything left for them to fo in milb?  they just arent good enough.  another year dominating triple a hitters wont do anything more.  they are bullpen guys, lefty relievers, and occasional 5th starters.  they'll never be anything more.

[buddha]

tanking can work.  ask the astros and cubs.  and spending on free agents isnt always a magic bullet.

however, what you need is good management to identify talent.  we havent had that since dombrowski and that's why were floundering.  not because we tanked or because we didnt spend money.  its because management has been terrible at identifying talent.  period.

will that change now?  who knows?  we'll just have to be patient with the losing and see.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Toddwert said:

Thank you… that’s why i always hated the who should have they signed argument…. It’s not my job i dont know what’s available….hell if its was up to me id give Judge 45 million a year 

And he would STILL say:

"Screw you Tigers, I'd rather play with the Yankees."

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, buddha said:

is there really anything left for them to fo in milb?  they just arent good enough.  another year dominating triple a hitters wont do anything more.  they are bullpen guys, lefty relievers, and occasional 5th starters.  they'll never be anything more.

Wentz needs more change in velo. He can certainly work on pitch repertoire at AAA more reasonably than Detroit. It's true guys can get stuck were they don't work on what they need to in the minor because they're having success there, but if your MiLB coaches can't get them past that you need new coaches.

In Faedo's case he needs to pitch more - period.  That can happen wherever it's appropriate. But he's only thrown something like 100 ip over the 4 previous yrs. When guys are out that much that long 100 IP is not unusual to get command/consistency back, then see what you may have.  He's a little over 40 for this season to far. 

Not to mention that Toledo needs some guys who can be successful there right now!

Edited June 10, 2023 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

2 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

what a wonderful self-fulfilling prophecy: this team sucks bad, so it makes sense that we spent no money on free agents to improve it.

how is that not the same argument that can be made this winter? we are not ready to spend because - you guessed it - the team sucks bad, in part because we spent no money on free agents to improve it.

Harris has a 2023 payroll less than the major league average and is $13M less than last year when they had a historically bad offense.

as a a fan, it is NOT my job to correctly identify the players that can help this team in free agency, the draft, through trades, Rule 5 draft or any other way. Harris and Co. are paid - literally - millions of dollars to do that.

what would this team look like with Jean Segura, Wil Myers and Brian Anderson? I have no effing clue!

solutions are NOT coming from the farm. Through 2024, Keith might be up as a major league starter.

but everyone else (Malloy, Meadows, Jung, ...) looks like more of what we have a lot of (outside of Green and maybe Baez): 1-2 WAR bench, platoon, and complimentary guys.

I also see you stopped referencing the Rangers pointless FA spending spree in the winter of 2021, now that they are in 1st place.

1. They would probably be right in the same soup they are right now.

2. The Rangers wouldn't have the record they have had if they did not have talent from within come up and succeed. Last I checked, they didn't sign Ezekiel Duran and Josh Jung in free agency.

Something that really hasn't happened in the Tigers case. 

[mtutiger]

And again, the other part I never see addressed is that free agents have agency... maybe they did actually try to bring some folks in, but ultimately free agents have free will. They do not have to sign here.

We continually hear names like Brandon Drury and Mitch Haniger thrown around, all of whom seemed intent on staying on the west coast, for instance.

[Toddwert]

17 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

And he would STILL say:

"Screw you Tigers, I'd rather play with the Yankees."

Your the same guy who thought these guys would bounce back and be awesome lol

[Toddwert]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

And again, the other part I never see addressed is that free agents have agency... maybe they did actually try to bring some folks in, but ultimately free agents have free will. They do not have to sign here.

We continually hear names like Brandon Drury and Mitch Haniger thrown around, all of whom seemed intent on staying on the west coast, for instance.

What happened to Chafin staying near his farm in Ohio?…… sometimes money talks

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

What happened to Chafin staying near his farm in Ohio?…… sometimes money talks

Do you think money talked in Brandon Drury's case? Or Mitch Haniger's case?

We don't even really know all the specifics of Chafin leaving, but even if it was over money, that doesn't mean that's the case with every other free agent name that gets thrown around.

[Toddwert]

Just now, mtutiger said:

Do you think money talked in Brandon Drury's case? Or Mitch Haniger's case?

We don't even really know all the specifics of Chafin leaving, but even if it was over money, that doesn't mean that's the case with every other free agent name that gets thrown around.

Atleast my view isn’t put your head in the sand and have a no one will play with us view point…. Why bother? You point out two players there were tens of players available this off season…. He got rid of a every day MLBer at 3rd and didn’t replace him with anything 

[Edman85]

4 hours ago, mtutiger said:

In detail, can you explain which stars analagous to Pudge or Magglio you would have signed this past offseason, and to what terms, and how you would expect that to have effected a change on the overall results?

The situation is what it is... it's easy to sit on a message board and talk about bringing in free agents like it's rolling down to Meijer and buying a six pack of Two Hearted Ale, a little harder in reality when free agents have agency and when bringing in the mediocre types require significant overpays.

 

Friends bought me just that for my birthday last week. They knew what was up.

[Edman85]

3 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

Atleast my view isn’t put your head in the sand and have a no one will play with us view point…. Why bother? You point out two players there were tens of players available this off season…. He got rid of a every day MLBer at 3rd and didn’t replace him with anything 

[SoCalTiger]

1 Continue to play Tork, Verling , Rogers and Maton at the MLB level in hopes of gaining two or three starters for 2024. 
2. Continue to play Keith, Mallory, Meadows in the minors. Don’t rush or panic. 
3 Draft well

4. Trade all possible assets at deadline should good deals present themselves. Lange Foley Erod Lorenzen Boyd. Haase McKinstry all available. Don’t be shy. 

5. Sign multiple short term free agents in the off season and one solid long term play. 
6. Take that calculated risk this off season Be bold. Baez for Tatis ? Take on salary if player solid. 
7. Trade in off season. 
8 Add rule 5 player

9 Keep working waiver wire. 
 

 

[Toddwert]

5 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Expect he hardly ever plays at 3rd… they throw out Maton and Ibenza most games

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

except he's not holding down the hot corner in RF. Credit where credit is due, McKinstrey looks like a nice player. Jury definitely still out of Maton, Malloy, Vierling and Nevin.