Sports_Freak Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 50 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: If we are now going to see the bad side of bullpen volatility, this is going to get really ugly. The bullpen is the main reason the Tigers were respectable in 2021 and the first couple months of this year. Too bad we don't have Fulmer..or Chafin...or Soto. BP arms are over-rated. Until they cost you games..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 3 hours ago, Dtrain72 said: After this team started off June 0-2, whilst seeing how ass the offense was without Green, some folks scoffed at me when I said they'd be lucky to win 5 games this month...who's scoffing now...this team aint winning even 5 games this month. You lost me at whilst. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said: With every failure, the value of Javier Baez goes down - and it makes it more possible that he won't be able to command what he's making now and we're stuck with him. I will remove Miguel from the equation because of his advanced age, but is Javy Baez the worst starting player in the Majors? I hope he hates it here so much that he just leaves anyway. What a disaster. I know they have a lot of injuries (because they're cursed), but if feels like when Riley went down - they quit. Careful what you wish for—players who leave because they hate it here tell other players how much they hate it here, which will make it that much harder to attract free agency talent when it comes time to really compete. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: Careful what you wish for—players who leave because they hate it here tell other players how much they hate it here, which will make it that much harder to attract free agency talent when it comes time to really compete. I don't think Javy's feelings here are going to move the needle on free agency in Detroit. That's why I think we're in for another long rebuild and lets hope Scott Harris & Co nail the draft and development angle - because that's probably the only way they are getting back to respectability. They have nothing really good to trade, do they? Free agents aren't coming here anyway and what difference would 2 or 3 high-priced players make. Besides, I don't think Javy is the most respected guy in the world either. I don't want to have to Miggy him for another 4 years. He's checked out. Might not be done, but as far as playing here, he's checked out. I think the only way a premium free agent is coming here is with a huge overpay. Chris is not Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: I don't think Javy's feelings here are going to move the needle on free agency in Detroit. That's why I think we're in for another long rebuild and lets hope Scott Harris & Co nail the draft and development angle - because that's probably the only way they are getting back to respectability. They have nothing really good to trade, do they? Free agents aren't coming here anyway and what difference would 2 or 3 high-priced players make. Besides, I don't think Javy is the most respected guy in the world either. I don't want to have to Miggy him for another 4 years. He's checked out. Might not be done, but as far as playing here, he's checked out. I think the only way a premium free agent is coming here is with a huge overpay. Chris is not Mike. Maybe consider that just because you hate Javy doesn't mean everyone in baseball hates Javy. I know a lot of people who love Javy, especially here in Big Shoulders, and I've read enough to know he does have a lot of friends in the game. So just because he's struggling in Detroit, that doesn't make him a pariah. Also, just because free agents aren't coming to Detroit this year doesn't mean that free agents will never come to Detroit ever again. The organization has to remake itself into one that players actively want to come play for, and that's going to take a lot of work and a bit of time to achieve a reputational overhaul, and not simply one more dollar than the other team is paying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 29 minutes ago, chasfh said: Careful what you wish for—players who leave because they hate it here tell other players how much they hate it here, which will make it that much harder to attract free agency talent when it comes time to really compete. They will like it here if they are offered $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said: Too bad we don't have Fulmer..or Chafin...or Soto. BP arms are over-rated. Until they cost you games..... Bullpens are more important than they used to be, but you still can't rely on them long term. If you aren't a contender, you should always be marketing good relievers and in-season is when they are most valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 17 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: They will like it here if they are offered $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ So, fewer free agents costing more money? Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 24 minutes ago, chasfh said: So, fewer free agents costing more money? Cool. I am not suggesting they should have signed any free agent last off-season or that they should sign anyone this off-season. I am just saying that I think the difficulty Detroit has in attracting free agents is over blown. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 I don't hate Javy, but I am just astonished by how bad he is. I don't think his opinion alone would say anyone away from here - especially as bad as he's been (I'd expect fans to kind of turn on you when you're THIS bad. I don't think he's the absolute authority about playing here. There are plenty of guys that would tell people the fans were great (most of them have retired). I just don't want to be stuck with him. Face it, we're in another 16 year tailspin. Feels like it, anyway. Here's hoping Harris and his staff are brilliant at drafting and developing. Couldn't be worse that Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 12, 2023 Author Share Posted June 12, 2023 12 hours ago, mtutiger said: The Detroit Tigers v. Zach Gallen. Good for my fantasy team, bad for the Detroit Tigers lol Props to you. You laid the groundwork for the fantasy team jinx which sounds like it would’ve gone well for the Tigers. Then folks audibly typed out stuff about having a lead in the game thread and that collective jinx was just too much for your jinx to bear. 3 stars to you for your efforts. 2 stars to the young 92 year old lady for making it to her 30th ballpark. 1 star to me because nobody else really deserves it. We cry ourselves to sleep again tonight and try our darndest again tomorrow. Carpe diem, morans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 3 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I am not suggesting they should have signed any free agent last off-season or that they should sign anyone this off-season. I am just saying that I think the difficulty Detroit has in attracting free agents is over blown. Not that it mattered this year since a team in our current position is not on the radar of top guys on the market. It’ll be a couple or three offseaons before we found out how that goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 12 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: Too bad we don't have Fulmer..or Chafin...or Soto. BP arms are over-rated. Until they cost you games..... Michael Fulmer and Gregory Soto haven't been good this year, for what its worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 13 hours ago, Tiger337 said: If we are now going to see the bad side of bullpen volatility, this is going to get really ugly. The bullpen is the main reason the Tigers were respectable in 2021 and the first couple months of this year. To be fair, it could also be a blip as well - even last year's pen, which was also very good on balance, had off games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I am not suggesting they should have signed any free agent last off-season or that they should sign anyone this off-season. I am just saying that I think the difficulty Detroit has in attracting free agents is over blown. Perhaps at the macro level, but on a case by case basis, the factors that make individual free agents tick are much different. And simply put, I largely don't think fans think about that or care... I bring up Brandon Drury a lot because it ilicited a visceral reaction on this board when he signed with Anaheim last offseason. It later came out that he said that he, iirc, he accepted less money to stay on the west coast and closer to his family. We don't know if the Tigers were in on Drury or not and probably never will, but even if they were, probably the only way to obtain him is to offer a dramatic overpay and pay him way more than he is worth. Obviously as fans, it's not our money... but from a fiduciary perspective, among other reasons, I am not going to blame any organization for not desperately offering a dramatic overpay to a mid-level free agent. And if they did sign him to a dramatic overpay and he didn't perform to the level of his contract? I'm sure the fanbase would complain then too. Great example of that over in Kansas City in Jordan Lyles, who somehow got 2-$17M to put up a 7 ERA through the first half of this year Edited June 12, 2023 by mtutiger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 12, 2023 Author Share Posted June 12, 2023 46 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Michael Fulmer and Gregory Soto haven't been good this year, for what its worth Both have FIPs below their ERAs. Both have been unlucky to an extent. Fulmer is allowing more base runners and home runs and striking out more batters than his career averages. There's probably a case that he hasn't pitched well. Soto is at a career low in runners allowed, particularly via walk (which is still on the high side). Hits allowed are down (hat tip to BABIP). It looks like he's not allowing as much hard contact as before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 32 minutes ago, casimir said: Both have FIPs below their ERAs. Both have been unlucky to an extent. Fulmer is allowing more base runners and home runs and striking out more batters than his career averages. There's probably a case that he hasn't pitched well. Soto is at a career low in runners allowed, particularly via walk (which is still on the high side). Hits allowed are down (hat tip to BABIP). It looks like he's not allowing as much hard contact as before. It's a fair point, but particularly in Fulmer's case, he hasn't really pitched well enough to be missed. And he's been pretty bad in leverage situations with the Cubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 2 hours ago, mtutiger said: Michael Fulmer and Gregory Soto haven't been good this year, for what its worth Fulmer's stuff is marginal, he is what he is. Soto's stuff is good when he can control it, but he could not throw his slider reliably last season which is what was making every outing in the later part of the season an adventure. Looking at Fangraphs, his slider usage is back up to where it was in '21 and its pitch value is closer to career norm so it's looks like he has recovered it. If he doesn't lose the slider again he'll probably have a decent season by the time it's over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, mtutiger said: Perhaps at the macro level, but on a case by case basis, the factors that make individual free agents tick are much different. And simply put, I largely don't think fans think about that or care... I bring up Brandon Drury a lot because it ilicited a visceral reaction on this board when he signed with Anaheim last offseason. It later came out that he said that he, iirc, he accepted less money to stay on the west coast and closer to his family. We don't know if the Tigers were in on Drury or not and probably never will, but even if they were, probably the only way to obtain him is to offer a dramatic overpay and pay him way more than he is worth. Obviously as fans, it's not our money... but from a fiduciary perspective, among other reasons, I am not going to blame any organization for not desperately offering a dramatic overpay to a mid-level free agent. And if they did sign him to a dramatic overpay and he didn't perform to the level of his contract? I'm sure the fanbase would complain then too. Great example of that over in Kansas City in Jordan Lyles, who somehow got 2-$17M to put up a 7 ERA through the first half of this year The Rangers were as bad as the The Tigers and they were able to attract big time free agents. If a team wants to spend money, the players will come. Some of it worked out for the Rangers and some of it didn't, but they are doing really well this year. Back in 2004, 2005, the Tigers were able to sign Rodriguez and Ordonez and that worked out great. If a team doesn't want to spend money, that is their business. As a fan, I don't care about team finances. It's not my problem. Also, as a fan, I am not sure I even want a team with a core of free agents. I would rather see them build a home grown roster for the most part. If they want to do it that way, the players will be glad to take the money though. Edited June 12, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The Rangers were as bad as the The Tigers and they were able to attract big time free agents. If a team wants to spend money, the players will come. Some of it worked out for the Rangers and some of it didn't, but they are doing really well this year. Back in 2004, 2005, the Tigers were able to sign Rodriguez and Ordonez and that worked out great. If a team doesn't want to spend money, that is their business. As a fan, I don't care about team finances. It's not my problem. Also, as a fan, I am not sure I even want a team with a core of free agents. I would rather see them build a home grown roster for the most part. If they want to do it that way, the players will be glad to take the money though. I have posted multiple times about the Rangers over and what they did in the Rebuilding thread, so I'm not going to rehash it all again other than to say they have gotten significant contributions from their young core (Jung, Duran, Leody Tavares, etc.)... as significant as the investments were in free agents, they were to supplement the young core, not the other way around. And one imagines that was part of their sales pitch over the past couple of seasons. The Tigers, for their part, did go out and spend some money after 2021 when it was believed (or wishcasted anyway) they were close. But last season did them no favors... the young pitchers have either been injured and/or underperformed, Torkelson has underwhelmed, and Greene has had an up-and-down go of it when he has actually been on the field. And the guys they did sign, outside of Chafin, have, for a variety of reasons, underperformed their contracts. Simply put, the Rangers made a bet on their core and it has worked out. Outside of maybe 84Lives, I doubt there is a single person on this board who would bet on the Tigers young core as it exists today if it was their resources Edited June 12, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: I have posted multiple times about the Rangers over and what they did in the Rebuilding thread, so I'm not going to rehash it all again other than to say they have gotten significant contributions from their young core (Jung, Duran, Leody Tavares, etc.)... as significant as the investments were in free agents, they were to supplement the young core, not the other way around. And one imagines that was part of their sales pitch over the past couple of seasons. The Tigers, for their part, did go out and spend some money after 2021 when it was believed (or wishcasted anyway) they were close. But last season did them no favors... the young pitchers have either been injured and/or underperformed, Torkelson has underwhelmed, and Greene has had an up-and-down go of it when he has actually been on the field. Simply put, the Rangers made a bet on their core and it has worked out. Outside of maybe 84Lives, I doubt there is a single person on this board who would bet on the Tigers young core as it exists today if it was their resources I doubt the big name free agents signed in Texas because of Jung, Duran and Taveras. They were not exceptional and the team was performing poorly. They came for the money. The Tigers had no young core when they signed Ordonez and Rodriguez. Ever since the 70s, there has always been teams willing to spend a lot of money. Sometimes it was good teams and big market teams, but other times it was poor teams taking a risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Simply put, the Rangers made a bet on their core and it has worked out. Outside of maybe 84Lives, I doubt there is a single person on this board who would bet on the Tigers young core as it exists today if it was their resources The Tigers best hope is that enough pitching gets healthy that they can move an effective starter or two or one or two effective position players. I'm still optimistic Torkelsen can be a good hitter, Greene looks solid. Add two FA and that's a 6 man line-up. Six solid players plus a Jake Rogers and a McKinstrey and you can fill in enough to compete. The problem is they are running out of time this season for any of that to happen - guys need to be on the roster pitching to establish trade value - and of course we are not likely to see Mize at all this season. But the lack of a single high trajectory player on either side of the ball at AAA is just catastrophic - it means there is no room for error, injury etc. They are going to need a marked reversal of their recent injury rates and what reason do we have to suppose that is going to happen? Edited June 12, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 Just now, Tiger337 said: I doubt the big name free agents signed in Texas because of Jung, Duran and Taveras. They were not exceptional and the team was performing poorly. They came for the money. The Tigers had no young core when they signed Ordonez and Rodriguez. Ever since the 70s, there has always been teams willing to spend a lot of money. Sometimes it was good teams and big market teams, but other times it was poor teams taking a risk. Perhaps you are right... I also think location matters a lot in the Rangers case as well; it's probably a more desirable market than Detroit. But again one could argue that Baez/Rodriguez were significant investments on the level of Pudge/Magglio and they havent exactly worked out like expected either. In the Rangers case, they didn't get to where they are just on their free agent signings. They needed the core to come through and they did. Until that changes in the Tigers case, we are really just arguing over a range between 65-70 and 70-75 wins when we discuss free agency imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I doubt the big name free agents signed in Texas because of Jung, Duran and Taveras. They were not exceptional and the team was performing poorly. They came for the money. The Tigers had no young core when they signed Ordonez and Rodriguez. Ever since the 70s, there has always been teams willing to spend a lot of money. Sometimes it was good teams and big market teams, but other times it was poor teams taking a risk. Big difference though. Texas has no income tax. Not saying that was in the only reasons, but it is a benefit to just take the money there vs take the money in Detroit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, KL2 said: Big difference though. Texas has no income tax. Not saying that was in the only reasons, but it is a benefit to just take the money there vs take the money in Detroit. there are states with graduated income taxes where that's going to ding you signficantly, e.g.,NY, Balt, MN are near 10%. No doubt, MI's 4.25% isn't chump change on $100M, but OTOH, I can't say I've ever heard a MI pro athlete complain about his state income tax. Also - state/local taxes are complicated for pro athletes - an athlete has to pay local taxes in the juridictions where their away games are played, so you only get the lower rate on the part of your salary you can apportion to your home games. Quote In general, people who earn a living by providing services are subject to tax in the state where they provide those services as well as in their resident state. Professional athletes, as well as the coaches, trainers, and other personnel traveling with the team, must allocate their salary to the various states where the team plays or practices. https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/taxation-is-the-name-of-the-game-for-professional-athletes Edited June 12, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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