jz68 Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 There's no reason the Tigers can't sustain having a Top 10 payroll. When the Tigers put a good team on the field, the fans show up. I'm not saying we should be near the top of the league, but there's no reason we shouldn't be somewhere in the #7 to #10 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 6, 2023 Author Share Posted July 6, 2023 44 minutes ago, jz68 said: There's no reason the Tigers can't sustain having a Top 10 payroll. When the Tigers put a good team on the field, the fans show up. I'm not saying we should be near the top of the league, but there's no reason we shouldn't be somewhere in the #7 to #10 range. the 2024 payroll will be about $80M-$100M short of the top 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalpigsmuggler Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 On 7/2/2023 at 10:45 AM, Jim Cowan said: Has anyone noticed how Hinch is getting an absolute free pass in this thread for letting Candelario go? He was brutal in 2021. I think the change of scenery helped him a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 Candelario is 29 and had a terrible season in 2022. Both he and the Tigers needed a change of scenery. Are you investing 3-4 years in a guy who is on the back end of the aging curve and not consistent? A 1 year deal to make a terrible offense incrementally better doesn't do much good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, kdog said: Candelario is 29 and had a terrible season in 2022. Both he and the Tigers needed a change of scenery. Are you investing 3-4 years in a guy who is on the back end of the aging curve and not consistent? A 1 year deal to make a terrible offense incrementally better doesn't do much good. Agree on 3-4 years: bad investment. But a 1-year...? Forget incremental offense... Would anyone want to have Candy on the roster right now... as a trade deadline candidate? Asking for a friend... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 (edited) Back to the Candelario discussion lol.... Food for thought: if they resign Candelario, is Zach McKinstry a Tiger today? Do they actually make the Phillies trade which, as bad as Nick Maton was, also did bring back Matt Vierling? Maybe that's a fine outcome, even preferable, YMMV... but they had a small window to make a decision after the 2022 season ended, before any free agency happened, and they made it. And we have to acknowledge that, because of butterfly effect, it could have had impacts on acquisitions that would have happened afterward and that might have not been entirely great either. I'm happy for Candy, but idk, I don't think it's a huge loss.... Edited July 6, 2023 by mtutiger 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 20 minutes ago, kdog said: Candelario is 29 and had a terrible season in 2022. Both he and the Tigers needed a change of scenery. Are you investing 3-4 years in a guy who is on the back end of the aging curve and not consistent? A 1 year deal to make a terrible offense incrementally better doesn't do much good. I think this was a major part of Harris reasoning. Might as well get started now(last off season) with finding a replacement for third base which is why he only offered Candy part time pay which Washington bested at 5 million. The unfortunate part is we are still looking for a 3rd sacker and won't get the trade return the Nationals will enjoy. Having said that I agreed with the decision-was happy to see him gone- and McKinstry will be a nice bench player for years to come at an affordable rate and this was a good year to "test the rest" and get that out of the way. The unfortunate thing is Hinch/Avilia thought Candy was better than Paredes who would be by far our best hitter. That worries me about Hinch. Does he really know talent when he sees it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 52 minutes ago, mtutiger said: ... Food for thought: if they resign Candelario, is ... Candy would never have been more than a 1-year stopgap, and a trade deadline candidate (less than 1 year) at that... So... IMO... I don't think having Candy on the 2023 Tigers roster precludes the FO in any way from any additional player/ transaction. And I don't consider McKinstry a 3B'man but rather a high-end utility IF'er... Candy still does not preclude us from obtaining him, IMO. Maton & McKinstry were moves for the future... Candy for right now... including as a pretty nice trade deadline piece (coulda/ woulda)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 44 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: ... The unfortunate thing is Hinch/Avilia ... Paredes ... This has two parts: 1) The troublesome part is that this would be bothersome or worse if this is true. Right under our noses... and can't see the talent? Or give it a chance to breathe and develop into a useful player? This team has at multiple times, for different reasons, let go of a "useful" - not All-Star or HOF'er - but useful... player that ended up giving a very productive player to another team. That the Tigers could have used themselves. Matt Joyce? Cody Ross? Eugenio Suarez? Do I include Wily Adames here...? And now it's Hinch and Paredes (so far)... Is Tork!!! next on this list...? 2) The flipside is maybe there were personality/ attitude/ etc. clashes that precipitated a move even we we were on the losing end of that deal. Not managements fault if a player is a problem (is their fault if it's a management issue) Again... Does Tork!!! end up here? If it's an evaluation/ developmental issue I have a problem with that. If it's a personality/ attitude issue (on the player's side)... nothing we can do about that. Except maybe hope that management is good at improving attitudes instead of making them worse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 I know it’s easy to forget about A Meadows and the timing of the trade with the Rays, but the theory would have been us getting a solid OF when we had a need. Not saying the appraisal of Paredes wasn’t flawed, just that there was an expected value in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 24 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: So... IMO... I don't think having Candy on the 2023 Tigers roster precludes the FO in any way from any additional player/ transaction. And I don't consider McKinstry a 3B'man but rather a high-end utility IF'er... Candy still does not preclude us from obtaining him, IMO. It doesn't preclude, per se, but it doesn't guarantee the chips fell as they otherwise did during this past offseason either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 5 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said: I know it’s easy to forget about A Meadows and the timing of the trade with the Rays, but the theory would have been us getting a solid OF when we had a need. Not saying the appraisal of Paredes wasn’t flawed, just that there was an expected value in return. I think both are true. We reasonably expected value in return. The appraisal of Paredes was (probably) flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: I think both are true. We reasonably expected value in return. The appraisal of Paredes was (probably) flawed. Everything about that trade is skewed by what has happened to Meadows. If Meadows were giving us 80-90 rbi, which was the common expectation, we’d be fine with what Isaac has done. I don’t think anyone in the Tiger org thought Paredes was a bust, they were just completely blindsided by the result with Meadows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 Marisnick boom stick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 Faedo, Manning, Skubal against the Jays. The rotation that terrorized AA not too many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 Paredes is just an example of promoting a guy too soon. He is 24 now and enjoying sustained success for the first time. There was no need to push him into the majors at 21 and again at 22, especially since they didn't like his glove very much. But it was a crap team and Avila needed something to brag about, such as this great young player that he had been clever enough to acquire. And the player did not succeed, he was not ready. Which is why I don't want to see Keith and Malloy promoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Paredes is just an example of promoting a guy too soon. He is 24 now and enjoying sustained success for the first time. There was no need to push him into the majors at 21 and again at 22, especially since they didn't like his glove very much. But it was a crap team and Avila needed something to brag about, such as this great young player that he had been clever enough to acquire. And the player did not succeed, he was not ready. Which is why I don't want to see Keith and Malloy promoted. The other aspect though is that the bottom line is you bring guys up when they can help. If they are still better than what they replace then I don’t really care if they are still not yet the player they may ultimately become. Greene being a case in point. He was ready enough to play on last years Tigers. That said, the tigers never gave Isaac a reasonable enough audition to know one way or the other if he was ready. The team also has to evaluate a guys mental makeup, but as fans we’re usually mostly in the dark on that Edited July 6, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 6, 2023 Author Share Posted July 6, 2023 https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/top-50-deadline-trade-candidates-early-july-edition.html Lorenzen, ERod, Cisnero, Foley, Lange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 12 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/top-50-deadline-trade-candidates-early-july-edition.html Lorenzen, ERod, Cisnero, Foley, Lange #2 - Jeimer Candelario... Candelario is a virtual lock to move within the next few weeks. Washington signed the third baseman to a $5MM deal after he was non-tendered by the Tigers. The move has worked out beautifully, as the switch-hitting infielder has posted a .261/.338/.477 line with strong defensive metrics. Nats’ GM Mike Rizzo told Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic last week he was setting a high asking price on Candelario early in deadline season. That’s understandable with a month to go, but the club eventually figures to pull the trigger on the best offer available. Candelario would be a fringe qualifying offer candidate, so Washington’s best chance to recoup future value is by moving him this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleMike Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: The other aspect though is that the bottom line is you bring guys up when they can help. If they are still better than what they replace then I don’t really care if they are still not yet the player they may ultimately become. Greene being a case in point. He was ready enough to play on last years Tigers. That said, the tigers never gave Isaac a reasonable enough audition to know one way or the other if he was ready. The team also has to evaluate a guys mental makeup, but as fans we’re usually mostly in the dark on that Very few guys earn promotions to MLB as finished products. If that were the bar few would ever get promoted. I'm not arguing that the Tigers should promote Keith, Malloy, or Meadows right not. But it's hard to know when a guy is truly ready and usually involves a bit of blind faith. In Paredes case I agree with you that the Tigers never gave him a serious look, like 300 AB at the MLB level. Never understood it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 8 hours ago, mtutiger said: Back to the Candelario discussion lol.... Food for thought: if they resign Candelario, is Zach McKinstry a Tiger today? Do they actually make the Phillies trade which, as bad as Nick Maton was, also did bring back Matt Vierling? Maybe that's a fine outcome, even preferable, YMMV... but they had a small window to make a decision after the 2022 season ended, before any free agency happened, and they made it. And we have to acknowledge that, because of butterfly effect, it could have had impacts on acquisitions that would have happened afterward and that might have not been entirely great either. I'm happy for Candy, but idk, I don't think it's a huge loss.... Yes, I think they would have made the Phillies trade. They still needed depth which Vierling provided and Maton was supposed to provide. I also think if they knew how good Candelario would be this year, they would have kept him (and then traded him at the deadline). They gambled and lost (but saved some money!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: Yes, I think they would have made the Phillies trade. From what had been reported about the trade, the two sides hadn't even been talking about any of these players around the time of the nontender deadline. Given that, I don't know that is clear at all that the trade would have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mtutiger said: two sides hadn't even been talking about any of these players around the time of the nontender deadline. Given that, I don't know that is clear at all that the trade would have happened. Then they would have made a similar trade with someone else because I don't think there was any chance they were keeping Soto. Edited July 7, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 10 hours ago, mtutiger said: Back to the Candelario discussion lol.... Food for thought: if they resign Candelario, is Zach McKinstry a Tiger today? Do they actually make the Phillies trade which, as bad as Nick Maton was, also did bring back Matt Vierling? Maybe that's a fine outcome, even preferable, YMMV... but they had a small window to make a decision after the 2022 season ended, before any free agency happened, and they made it. And we have to acknowledge that, because of butterfly effect, it could have had impacts on acquisitions that would have happened afterward and that might have not been entirely great either. I'm happy for Candy, but idk, I don't think it's a huge loss.... Regarding Maton, I think the emphasis of that deal was to move Soto at his top remaining value (output & salary). So, if not Maton, than maybe they would acquired someone else along with Vierling and Sands, or gone with another deal with another team. And then even if Candelario and Maton were on the same squad, do we know that there wouldn’t have been a deal for McKinstry? Maron & McKinstry aren’t just 3B options. Clearly they fit the prototype utility player that Harris/Hinch had eyes for lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: From what had been reported about the trade, the two sides hadn't even been talking about any of these players around the time of the nontender deadline. Given that, I don't know that is clear at all that the trade would have happened. I'm with Lee... the trade absolutely would have happened. They were moving Soto, no matter what. And Harris wanted Maton and Vierling because they had EXACTLY the profile that he was looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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