Tiger337 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 A reliever is off the market - David Robertson traded to Marlins for Macro Vargas and Rolando Hernandez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: Blah. Williamson and Spiers are Faedo-level at best. Siani is yet another LH OF. I'd do ERod to Balt for just Joey Ortiz. Agreed, all of them are 24 or older as well without great results so yeah I would hope Harris would say thank you, try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 47 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Still unlikely though. When you trade a rental, you'll almost always get a player with flaws which the other team sees as expendable. I don't think that be true. Unproven is not a flaw. Eduardo was highly regarded and went for a rental, plenty of other examples too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Rental prices have changed since 2014 when E-Rod was traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, kdog said: Rental prices have changed since 2014 when E-Rod was traded. Have they though? Giolito just got a top 50ish prospect and he is a rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 23 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: Blah. Williamson and Spiers are Faedo-level at best. Siani is yet another LH OF. I'd do ERod to Balt for just Joey Ortiz. I know people have set this bar that where Harris has to get something, but part of how you maintain leverage is having the backbone to walk away if you don't get what you think is good value. I kinda hope that's the approach they take with Rodriguez in particular.... and if they cannot find a good enough deal, just work hard to see if he can be extended. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Longgone said: Why? You’re more likely to get a high ceiling guy if he’s further away. Tigers need stars and nobody is going to give you a major league ready star, you have to take a gamble. I don’t think we will get a high value minor leaguer without sending back controllable assets. So a player on the verge or blocked like Verling is what I’m thinking. A lefty hitting catcher or a near ready third baseman young with multiple years of control. Like Paredas was when we traded him. Sure if we can get a 55 rated prospect that’s great but I don’t see it for Lorenzen and even Erod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, mtutiger said: I know people have set this bar that where Harris has to get something, but part of how you maintain leverage is having the backbone to walk away if you don't get what you think is good value. I kinda hope that's the approach they take with Rodriguez in particular.... and if they cannot find a good enough deal, just work hard to see if he can be extended. I agree. Harris can’t do future trades if he doesn’t hold his ground. He will forever be offered crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, KL2 said: I don't think that be true. Unproven is not a flaw. Eduardo was highly regarded and went for a rental, plenty of other examples too. There are a lot more examples of prospects that failed. I don't think it's lower level versus upper level. It's hoping that the Tigers are smarter than the team that they are dealing with and can identify the right players. Edited July 28, 2023 by Tiger337 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCalTiger said: I agree. Harris can’t do future trades if he doesn’t hold his ground. He will forever be offered crap. It's really tricky because the Jeff Riger and Mark Gorosh types (not to mention Evan Woodbury or the other beat writers) will roast him if he doesn't bring back anything most likely, but I suspect all the good traders in baseball get to that position by being able to risk getting nothing in order to return max value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 the Rays started out like the 1984 Tigers, but have fallen hard, decimated by SP injuries. We all assume TB won't make a desperation trade, because they are too smart, but they have to do SOMETHING. right? Ultimately no one knows - not even their current teams - how these kids will turn out. All we know is most prospects will fall short. Its been that way for 100 years. I still remember FG roasting DD for getting robbed by Seattle when trading for Fister. adding an Olson or a Veirling will help the cause. always hoping for a little more than that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 58 minutes ago, kdog said: Rental prices have changed since 2014 when E-Rod was traded. Except they haven't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 46 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: There are a lot more examples of prospects that failed. I don't think it's lower level versus upper level. It's hoping that the Tigers are smarter than the team that they are dealing with and can identify the right players. Well no duh nobody wants to trade for a bust or aims to do so. You said only flawed players are traded for rentals. You didn't say anything about upper and lower levels you said flawed and that's why they are expendable. That just isn't true. Teams will trade really good prospects even for rentals because the goal is to win today. Being unproven doesn't make a player flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, KL2 said: Well no duh nobody wants to trade for a bust or aims to do so. You said only flawed players are traded for rentals. You didn't say anything about upper and lower levels you said flawed and that's why they are expendable. That just isn't true. Teams will trade really good prospects even for rentals because the goal is to win today. Being unproven doesn't make a player flawed. My original response was about upper versus lower prospects because others were saying that lower level prospects were preferable. I believe that proven player for prospect trades are won by the team getting the proven player more often than not. It's better to get something than nothing though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 I'd have to go back and do research on the subject but it doesn't seem like rental prices have changed too drastically in the past 10 years when it comes to pitching whether it be starters or relievers, I think teams still covet that cause the nature of the postseason and the impact they can have on it. OTOH with bats I do think teams realized that its harder for them to make an impact in short series against premium pitching so if they are a rental they aren't going to break the bank for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) In 2021 the rental Scherzer along with a 1.5 years of Trea Turner netted the Nationals the Dodgers top 2 prospects(both top 25ish overall) along with 2 45+ grade prospects. It's hard to say how much the 1.5 years of Turner added to the deal but I'd imagine even if it was only Scherzer it would've been atleast one of the top 2 along with a mid grade guy which isn't a whole lot different than what we got for the rental David Price in 2015. With Price we got the premium highly touted guy in Norris who was top 25ish at the time and the fringe prospect Matt Boyd. Edited July 28, 2023 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 It sounds simplistic but the price is whatever the teams doing the trade say the price is. You only have 30 data points (each MLB team) to go off and just because X netted Y in 2018 doesn't mean X will net Y in 2023. It's whatever team A and team B can agree to. They are the only ones who determine what the market is. The needs and status of each team in a trade are unique. A team with what they think is a surplus of SP in the minors might be more wiling to trade their top prospect SP than a team without the surplus, even though those two prospects might be evenly rated by the "experts". I don't believe Harris will make a trade just to make a trade. This isn't 2017 where they need to get assets for the future. He'd be fine going into 2024 with Lorenzen and Rodriguez on the roster. In 2017 they knew it was over so they were having the fire sale. He will make a trade if it puts the team in a better position in 2024 and 2025. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, oblong said: It sounds simplistic but the price is whatever the teams doing the trade say the price is. You only have 30 data points (each MLB team) to go off and just because X netted Y in 2018 doesn't mean X will net Y in 2023. It's whatever team A and team B can agree to. They are the only ones who determine what the market is. The needs and status of each team in a trade are unique. A team with what they think is a surplus of SP in the minors might be more wiling to trade their top prospect SP than a team without the surplus, even though those two prospects might be evenly rated by the "experts". I don't believe Harris will make a trade just to make a trade. This isn't 2017 where they need to get assets for the future. He'd be fine going into 2024 with Lorenzen and Rodriguez on the roster. In 2017 they knew it was over so they were having the fire sale. He will make a trade if it puts the team in a better position in 2024 and 2025. The problem is if you don't make a trade, you still don't have Lorenzen and Rodriguez on next year's roster. And you definitely don't have a draft pick to fall back on for Rodriguez, and likely don't for Lorenzen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 I don't think it will matter much but one thing to consider with E-Rod is that he isn't a guarantee rental. Yeah if he pitches well the rest of the year he is gone but there is the small chance that say he implodes down the stretch or gets hurt that maybe he doesn't opt out so the team trading for him will atleast get to have him for 3 more years at a reasonable price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Have they though? Giolito just got a top 50ish prospect and he is a rental. It was also the Angels, too, so ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 3 hours ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Have they though? Giolito just got a top 50ish prospect and he is a rental. Isn't the prospect a C? The Tigers shouldn't be too choosy about position, but a C certainly would have been nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 3 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: I agree. Harris can’t do future trades if he doesn’t hold his ground. He will forever be offered crap. It really is my biggest concern in this process.... we, as fans, may hope they get something of value for these two players (or others), but I sure hope that's not what Harris is trying to project, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) the best outcome for the Tigers is to combine the value of ERod and Lorenzen into one better player. That probably means what we need is Harris to come up with a three way where Lorenzen goes to team A, ERod goes to team B, team A sends something decent to Team B, and Team B sends us something better than decent - i.e. better than we could have gotten for either alone. Edited July 28, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 CWS close to trading Lynn and Kelley to LAD. That's how its done; dump everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: It really is my biggest concern in this process.... we, as fans, may hope they get something of value for these two players (or others), but I sure hope that's not what Harris is trying to project, that's all. the inverse is Avila never trading Boyd because he never got the BIG WIN haul from any team that he was desperately looking for. as well as holding onto Nick and JD until their market cratered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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