2023 Trade Deadline

[mtutiger]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

This is a pitchers’ deadline. Teams aren’t paying for hitting. Either way, I think a “pretty underwhelming return” beats a goose egg every day.

I mostly don't care either way.

[Jim Cowan]

7 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Agree.  Nats fans can be happy they had Candy on their team until now, but have to be bummed with the return.  Makes you wonder why Washington didn’t keep him  and try and sign him beyond this season?

When you look at what they got for him, you have to think that their objective was sImply to save $2 million in payroll.  That Double A pitcher walks about 5.5 per 9, Harris would have just laughed at that.  The 20 year old shortstop in High A is a teeny little guy who doesn't do much with the bat, he'd better be a magician with the glove.  So, this is the baseball equivalent of "nothing".  I'm surprised, but I guess that no specific contender had an obvious need for a third baseman.

[chasfh]

24 minutes ago, 4hzglory said:

Does it for prorated $7 million though?

Not sure what you mean. I’m just saying we got nothing for him, and I don’t care about money saved.

Edited August 1, 2023 by chasfh

[Sports_Freak]

JV back to Detroit? 😃

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

When you look at what they got for him, you have to think that their objective was sImply to save $2 million in payroll.  That Double A pitcher walks about 5.5 per 9, Harris would have just laughed at that.  The 20 year old shortstop in High A is a teeny little guy who doesn't do much with the bat, he'd better be a magician with the glove.  So, this is the baseball equivalent of "nothing".  I'm surprised, but I guess that no specific contender had an obvious need for a third baseman.

The Nats return is honestly the position player equivalent of the Michael Fulmer trade last year... 

Just not worth getting angry over. Or for beat writers to shift into armchair GMs over.

[gehringer_2]

22 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I'd rather have kept JD than traded him for the junk that came back in return.  Let the fans enjoy him, probably get a draft pick?  Getting something for JD was not better than zero.

Avila lacked imagination - never saw that he had alternatives. They could have at least tried to  sign JD to a reasonable extension. It didn't matter if was more than they wanted to pay because as a controlled high value hitter they could have moved in him the following off-season or even in a year at the next deadline for a better return as controlled player. As long as the contract was reasonable enough that he was stil tradeable, the Tigers weren't going to have to pay much of it.

[Cruzer1]

I thought that the Mariners did extremely well in the trade for their closer. The Cleveland team also did well in the trade for Civale.

[theroundsquare]

Civale has a few years of control left as I recall, so they very well should have gotten a good return for him

[Jim Cowan]

15 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Avila lacked imagination - never saw that he had alternatives. They could have at least tried to  sign JD to a reasonable extension. It didn't matter if was more than they wanted to pay because as a controlled high value hitter they could have moved in him the following off-season or even in a year at the next deadline for a better return as controlled player. As long as the contract was reasonable enough that he was stil tradeable, the Tigers weren't going to have to pay much of it.

That JD transaction was the behaviour of someone who was frightened of public reactions to his movements.  All he knew was that he was going to get tarred and feathered in the media, "social" and "mainstream", if he didn't "get something for JD, otherwise he walks and we get nothing" which I don't think is strictly true because there might have been a compensatory draft pick, but I have no expertise there.  A compensatory pick had a decent chance to be better than Lugo.

Anyway, he got Sweet FA for JD, just like the Nationals got Sweet FA for Candelario.  Nothing.  They got nothing.  Their return for Candelario is exactly the same as the Tigers' return.  Zero.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, 4hzglory said:

Does it for prorated $7 million though?

If their intention was to to save money, then I can't really argue with that.

That's not my problem as a fan tnough.  I'd prefer the higher budget.  

[Tiger337]

14 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

That JD transaction was the behaviour of someone who was frightened of public reactions to his movements.  All he knew was that he was going to get tarred and feathered in the media, "social" and "mainstream", if he didn't "get something for JD, otherwise he walks and we get nothing" which I don't think is strictly true because there might have been a compensatory draft pick, but I have no expertise there.  A compensatory pick had a decent chance to be better than Lugo.

Anyway, he got Sweet FA for JD, just like the Nationals got Sweet FA for Candelario.  Nothing.  They got nothing.  Their return for Candelario is exactly the same as the Tigers' return.  Zero.

JD was arguably the second best Tigers hitter of my lifetime after Cabrera (I missed Kaline's prime).  I would rather he had stayed the last two months than be traded for garbage.  Candelario is pretty good, but he's not JD.  

Edited August 1, 2023 by Tiger337

[Jim Cowan]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

JD was arguably the second best Tigers hitter of my lifetime after Cabrera (I missed Kaline's prime).  I would rather he had stayed the last two months than be traded for garbage.  

Absolutely.  Don't trade him for Dawel Lugo, keep him here, try to do something with his contract.  Now, here's what everyone knew at the time Dombrowski wasn't going to let him sign with anyone except the Red Sox.

I don't understand the whole compensatory draft choice thing but I would have happily stood at a microphone after the deadline and said "I talked to JD, and I listened to offers, and I think that the best course of action is for JD to stay here for now, and for the long term we hope".  Getting some terrible players in exchange, instead of getting nothing in exchange...well those are exactly the same thing in my opinion. 

[Cruzer1]

The last time the Tigers received compensation for a free agent, they picked Christin Stewart after losing Scherzer.

[Jim Cowan]

1 minute ago, Cruzer1 said:

The last time the Tigers received compensation for a free agent, they picked Christin Stewart after losing Scherzer.

Ha!  Better than Lugo, am I right?

[Cruzer1]

I remember one time when the Tigers lost a pick for signing a free agent, the draft slot ended up being Mountcastle to Baltimore.

[SoCalTiger]

50 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

That JD transaction was the behaviour of someone who was frightened of public reactions to his movements.  All he knew was that he was going to get tarred and feathered in the media, "social" and "mainstream", if he didn't "get something for JD, otherwise he walks and we get nothing" which I don't think is strictly true because there might have been a compensatory draft pick, but I have no expertise there.  A compensatory pick had a decent chance to be better than Lugo.

Anyway, he got Sweet FA for JD, just like the Nationals got Sweet FA for Candelario.  Nothing.  They got nothing.  Their return for Candelario is exactly the same as the Tigers' return.  Zero.

I always thought Rizzo was a clone of Al and this trade reinforces that. Rizzo is one of the last old school GMs. 

[Jim Cowan]

So perhaps we could all dismiss the Candelario discussion by saying that, surprisingly, the Nationals got Sweet FA for him, which is not more than the Tigers received.  Both teams received the same in exchange for him.  Sweet nothing.  No, the Nationals did not receive more.  They got nothing.  Same as the Tigers.  Which apparently is the market price.

[Jim Cowan]

So it seems like here is a lesson for future GMs of lousy teams...don't sign a deadline bat in November.  Nobody wants one in July.  Sign a couple of deadline arms instead.

[Jim Cowan]

Do you know who I feel bad for?  Candelario.  Yes, he knows it's a  business, and he's going to make his $5 million one way or another.   But still..."that's all you could get for me?".  That has to sting a little bit.

[Cruzer1]

41 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Do you know who I feel bad for?  Candelario.  Yes, he knows it's a  business, and he's going to make his $5 million one way or another.   But still..."that's all you could get for me?".  That has to sting a little bit.

He's also a free agent at the end of the year. He's going to be fine.

[casimir]

11 hours ago, Edman85 said:

And at a higher price tag, the Tigers wouldn't have even gotten that on the deal.

We're talking the difference of, what, $1M?  $7M - $5M prorated for less than the last half of the season?  I understand there are several variables at play when these deals are made.  But it also seems odd that the Cubs would balk at an extra $1M.

[casimir]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Avila lacked imagination - never saw that he had alternatives. They could have at least tried to  sign JD to a reasonable extension. It didn't matter if was more than they wanted to pay because as a controlled high value hitter they could have moved in him the following off-season or even in a year at the next deadline for a better return as controlled player. As long as the contract was reasonable enough that he was stil tradeable, the Tigers weren't going to have to pay much of it.

Speaking of, I know its contrary to popular thought for a crud team to trade away young & controlled players, but if the Tigers could augment a deal to bring back some young & controlled MLB ready IF help, they have to entertain discussions for players like Carpenter, Malloy, MeadowsP, do they not?  The OF is lefty heavy (Carpenter/MeadowsP) and I think it'd be nice to have actual OFs playing OF (Carpenter/Malloy) and the jury is still out on hitting at the MLB level (MeadowsP/Malloy).

[mtutiger]

5 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Do you know who I feel bad for?  Candelario.  Yes, he knows it's a  business, and he's going to make his $5 million one way or another.   But still..."that's all you could get for me?".  That has to sting a little bit.

Its no different than when he was the first guy off the market at $5mil this offseason. And it surprised some folks, including around here.

He has had seasons, including this one, where he has had some nice baseball card stats, but ultimately there's a lot of evidence that execs around the league don't value his skills in the same way as Detroit beat writers do. This trade is a good example as well - sure, he returned a couple of warm bodies, but they are scratch off lotto tickets in the grand scheme of things.

And if Scott Harris made that trade if Candy were here and putting up similar numbers, I suspect he'd be getting raked over the coals for not getting enough value back

Edited August 1, 2023 by mtutiger

[RandyMarsh]

Imagine how JD felt, one of the best hitters on the planet for 3 and half years at that point and all he was able to fetch was Dawel Lugo and Jose King? Of course in his head he could atleast you the idiot GM that traded him as the excuse. 

[Edman85]

The JD trade was clearly ownership mandated to dump salary. The financials of that team, Chris's first, were beyond untenable, and I think played a big role in the paltry returns for JD, Upton, and to an extent, Verlander.

 

In the Forbes numbers, the 2017 team has one of the biggest non-COVID operating loss numbers for any team season in recent history. And would have been even worse if not for those dumps.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Edman85