2023 Trade Deadline

[Cruzer1]

Dodgers? Vargas. Easy.

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, casimir said:

Perhaps, but Candelario had played some 1B along the way.  Who plays 1B when Torkelson sits?  Ibanez and Nevin have a pair of games each this season.  That's it, that's the list.

Surprisingly for 3B though, he was a pretty poor 1B. Never seemed to get the footwork down.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

It's entirely possible that Harris didn't think he was "done done" but, when looking at his profile as a player, decided he wasn't a fit for what he wants to do here.

We've talked about his defensive versatility before; the guy doesn't move around the diamond. Harris (and AJ) seem to value guys that can. So combining that with an overall poor performance in 2022, they made a calculated risk to move on and see if they could get production from someone else at that position.

We know how it played out in the end, but while people can disagree, the decision when it was made had logic to it.

I suppose it could be true Jeimer didn't fit what the new administration wanted to do here, although I don't see how a guy who has a history of plus-D, pop from both sides of the plate, and the ability to take a walk doesn't fit what they want to do here. Seems like Jeimer has proven yet again he can deliver on all three.

Does all that really take a back seat to "defensive versatility"? I think that whole idea might be misunderstood. I really doubt Harris and Hinch believe that the way to win rings is by fielding twelve guys who can all play at least three positions on the diamond at random every game. I think it's more an issue of, the organization is in a very bad stretch right now where the only players available to us are marginal talents, many of whom have value only as utility players. They should be bench players at best on decent teams, which we are not right now, so we have no choice but to play guys like this every day. Might as well test them at various positions to see whether they can play well enough somewhere anywhere while we figure out whether we can go long with any of these guys (which, no real surprise, it looks like we won't be able to).

That's why I think we are swimming in utility players all playing multiple positions. I don't think it's our strategy to win in the future—I think it's more the only way at our disposal to survive and try to compete at this moment. Once we do get everyday players at third base and second base and in the corners on board, we won't need a multiplicity of the Zach McKinstrys or Andy Ibanezes or Tyler Nevins of the game moving around our diamond anymore.

[casimir]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

Surprisingly for 3B though, he was a pretty poor 1B. Never seemed to get the footwork down.

He was watching too many Carlos Guillen tapes.

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I suppose it could be true Jeimer didn't fit what the new administration wanted to do here, although I don't see how a guy who has a history of plus-D, pop from both sides of the plate, and the ability to take a walk doesn't fit what they want to do here. Seems like Jeimer has proven yet again he can deliver on all three.

Except in 2022, when he delivered on none of the three. 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Harris and Hinch believe that the way to win rings is by fielding twelve guys who can all play at least three positions on the diamond at random every game.

To push back on  that some,  I do think Hinch does have a passion for having buttons to push. Whether he would get over that should he have a team where he doesn't need to is definitely the question.

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

To push back on  that some,  I do think Hinch does have a passion for having buttons to push. Whether he would get over that should he have a team where he doesn't need to is definitely the question.

That's kinda where the game is going in general.... even the good teams have a lot more versatility than they did in the 1990s.

[chasfh]

23 minutes ago, casimir said:

Perhaps, but Candelario had played some 1B along the way.  Who plays 1B when Torkelson sits?  Ibanez and Nevin have a pair of games each this season.  That's it, that's the list.

I found it amusing that the Cubs in-studio crew were praising the pickup because of Candelario's positional flexibility to play both third and first. They still have Madrigal and Wisdom at third and they've been struggling to fill first base, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Jeimer get the bulk of minutes there.

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Don't you think it's a higher level combination of skills? You have less reaction time than at 2nd, need to be able to dive then get up and make a SS quality throw, and you're expected to hit for power. I think the fielding std is higher for a 3b than it used to be. Back in the day a 3b with a decent bat was only expect to stand at the line and try to prevent doubles. Now they need to be able to play D all the way out to SS one the soft shift but are still expected to hit 20+ HR. 

There are probably more physical skills required at third base, but it's two different skill sets.  2B requires pivots and throws at second base which is a skill not everyone has.  The big thing about 2B versus 3B though is they are involved in about 60% plays (interestingly it was 80% about 20 years ago), so there are more opportunities to make mistakes.  Thus, it's more crucial that the 2B is steady and sure handed and consistently makes accurate throws.  This might be more mental than physical, but they are still skills.

What I find interesting about third base (as you also suggested) is how the profile has changed so much over the years.  Back in the early 20th century, it was considered a defense first position and there weren't a lot of good hitters there.  Then over time, it became more of an offensive position and eventually got to the point where it was considered a power hitting position almost like first base.  In recent years, defense at third has become important again.  They are expected to be able to hit for some power too, but that is true of middle infelders now too.     

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

That's kinda where the game is going in general.... even the good teams have a lot more versatility than they did in the 1990s.

I made the argument the other day that maybe with the shift banned we may see more LH bats getting to be everday players again. I'll stand by wanting to see how that plays out.

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Except in 2022, when he delivered on none of the three. 

2023.

[chasfh]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

To push back on  that some,  I do think Hinch does have a passion for having buttons to push. Whether he would get over that should he have a team where he doesn't need to is definitely the question.

Why do you think Hinch has a passion for pushing buttons? Has he said as much? Is it because he's doing so now?

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The big thing about 2B versus 3B though is they are involved in about 60% plays (interestingly it was 80% about 20 years ago), so there are more opportunities to make mistakes.

to tie this to may last post, if LHH hitters do end up getting more ABs in aggregate since the shift is banned, then  more plays will go to 2B.

[LongLiveMaroth]

 

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

2023.

I had no clue that the Tigers front office had Candy's 2023 numbers when evaluating a decision to tender or nontender in 2022. 

I should ask Scott Harris to pick out some lotto numbers for me to play as well.

Edited August 1, 2023 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I had no clue that the Tigers front office had Candy's 2023 numbers when evaluating a decision to tender or nontender in 2022. 

I should ask Scott Harris to pick out some lotto numbers for me to play as well.

I assume that he had sophisticated projected numbers for him and I would guess that they were substantially higher than his 2022 numbers.  

Edited August 1, 2023 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Why do you think Hinch has a passion for pushing buttons? Has he said as much? Is it because he's doing so now?

yes. We had weak teams without 'everyday' players under Leyland, Ausmus and Gardenhire, but my strong impression is that Hinch still makes a lot more lineup, PH, and field subsitutions than his predecessors. I think he has a more 'interventionist' mindset that just 'let the boys play'. Logically you would have to if you are big into analytics. They don't do you any good if you don't make the active moves to implement what they suggest. And take his views on relief pitching. He is sold on the idea of using relievers in patterns based on varying their stuff and delivery as an active way to make the bullpen more effective in aggregate. That's not something we've seen here before. And I'm not knocking it at all - it seems to work - but it betrays the strength of his mindset that says "detailed in game management makes a difference"

[KL2]

9 minutes ago, LongLiveMaroth said:

 

BIDDING WARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[1984Echoes]

50 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

this is important. Harris did bring in some IF's but we've seen none of them are adequate 3Bs on the defensive side. (even putting aside hitting issues). To me it's not moving on from Candelario per se that's a mistake, it's moving on but failing to find and a replacemnet even as good at the 2022 Candelario that made it a mistake.

I wouldn't say it this way.

Because we were moving on from Candy in 2023 no matter what, even if we didn't after 2022. He's a FA this year. He's gone. No need to invest a FA contract on him. It doesn't matter to me that they didn't have a ready-made replacement at 3B... that's just a problem to solve.

To me the issues were:

1) 2B is easier to slot guys and/or test guys out at than at 3B. Much easier to flip guys like McKinstry/ Short/ Maton etc. through 2B, and some time at SS and some time at 3B, than to push one of them into a starting 3B job. Much easier to handle 2B. And if they show themselves as good enough to take over 3B... then a move could conceivably be made. Same with Malloy and Keith if they made it to MLB this year. But even if no one showed enough at 3B in 2023, we were STILL moving on from Candy during/ after 2023 so to me, that's moot point. The position still needs to be filled. I'd rather make it easier on guys though (2B), and force one of them to "push" Candy out of the 3B job. I don't consider lack of 3B replacement as a "mistake", per se, but instead, the "mistake" of valuing 2B higher than 3B, and of creating a more difficult transition path for new guys (3B instead of 2B), and also of not retaining a "push him out the door with performance" situation.

2) Schoop was a mistake to me. All winter long I assessed him as "toast". Now... what do I know? But, reiterating one of my points... what kind of performance would be required to push him out of a spot? Because it looks like to me: a guy could be the worst player in MLB this year (not counting Schoop), and that would be good enough to push Schoop out of a job. Because... Schoop is the worst piece of hot garbage in MLB, this year.

3) Opportunity Cost: dropping Candy means we lost a draft pick I believe. Why would we do that? Aside from getting guys back in a deadline trade, which may or may not have more value than the draft pick... why are we tossing easy money (draft pick/ traded-for players) out the door? That's a lost opportunity cost, which I think is a mistake.

4) Candy 2023 > Schoop 2023. Any decision otherwise was a mistake. And this was known in October, 2022. At least by those who have some Nostradamus in their DNA. Like me. And Chas. And I think Lee too IIRC...

 

 

 

 

[Tiger337]

 

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I assume that he had sophisticated projected numbers for him and I would guess that they were substantially higher than his 2022 numbers.  

Sure. But in terms of a valuation on Candy's worth, there isn't a GM in baseball who wouldn't have factored his horrendous 2022 season into the decision to tender or nontender.

[KL2]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

 

So Harris needs to come away with five bodies today.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Why is it harder to find a good player at third base than second base?  You wouldn't know that from the current crop of players.  It seems about equal.  

The reaction times are much faster at 3B than at 2B.

Must have a strong arm for 3B.

Neither are required at 2B.

In fact teams hide guys at 2B if they have to... guys with weak arms and also limited mobility/ reaction times but with a big bat.

Range is needed less at 3B than at 2B.

Just some off the cuff observations without the empirical data to support those WAG theories...

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Sure. But in terms of a valuation on Candy's worth, there isn't a GM in baseball who wouldn't have factored his horrendous 2022 season into the decision to tender or nontender.

The projections would take his 2022 season into account.  

[Tigermojo]

CandelariNO