2023 Trade Deadline

[casimir]

Rodriguez' next home start will be vs the Twins, probably on Tuesday, August 8 if the 5 man rotation holds true.

[Motor City Sonics]

Maybe, just maybe Rodiguez likes it here because it's more low key.  He went through something last year.   The media in this town (and the fans) pretty much left him alone.   Think he gets that in New York, Boston or Philly?      Maybe his wife hates Los Angeles.   I stay with a friend in LA for 8 weeks,  after 10 days I couldn't wait to get home.   It's not for everyone (unless you like endless generic strip malls and taking 2 hours to 10 miles).     He might actually want to stay here. 

Even if he doesn't, then we earmark that $17 million to another free agent next year.  

 

Now if he bolts and Chris Illitch/Scott Harris refuse to spend anything after lopping over $50 million off the payroll - yeah, then I'll be pretty pissed,

 

But again,  it's all about 2025.      It doesn't matter until then, really. 

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

When it comes to building a team culture, I leave that totally up to the team.  I don't think that is something fans really know about.  The players may very well like Rodriguez and be sympathetic to whatever his problems are. 

The Tigers have a history of malcontents, who were important parts of some great teams.  Two notable examples are Ty Cobb and Denny McLain.     

As a fan, I could hardly care less about the culture in the clubhouse. I care about winning. Lots of teams have won with players that fought among themselves, The 70s A's hated each other and Charlie Finley and won three straight pennants. Then the Yankees won in the late 70s with their toxic team. So a harmonious clubhouse is not a prerequisite for championships.

Also, as you note with Cobb and McLain, individuals both crotchety and flaky have had tremendous years and even helped their teams win pennants or rings. The guys around them may or may not have hated them, but they dealt with it and still played as a team and, in many cases, won.

So if Eduardo Rodriguez waives his opt-in, pitches three full years to a 75 or 80 FIP-, and is a cog on the 2026 pennant winner, I would be all for that result.

I bring up clubhouse culture not because I require that for the team, but because that is one of the main components that Scott Harris and A.J. Hinch has said is a focus for the Tigers organization. They have said they want to foster a "culture of development, where everything and everyone can improve", and create a system that will "acquire, develop and retain young players". Implicit in that is a culture of teamwork, in which players will be expected put the team above their own interests. Not to set aside personal goals entirely, I'm sure, but at least to not act publicly in a way that calls into question the grip that management has on the system and its players. There's one guy above all of it who I assume is watching all this very closely, and is likely more engaged in what's going on than he might have been before. His impressions of all this, whatever those might be, will be very important.

If Eduardo Rodriguez flakes out again and creates the kind of chaos he has already done on at least two separate occasions in his short tenure here, it stands to reason that would create a danger of undermining that cultural strategy Harris and Hinch have put themselves in charge of implementing and overseeing. How they handle Eduardo now is crucial in how it affects not only their relationship with him, but also their relationships with the other players. In that way, I don't envy Harris right now, because he has to walk the very fine line between appearing to come down too hard on Eduardo and alienating veterans and potential free agents, versus appearing to let him totally get away with this all and possibly inviting other players to publicly act out in their own way. This is where he will really earn his salary.

[romad1]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

As a fan, I could hardly care less about the culture in the clubhouse. I care about winning. Lots of teams have won with players that fought among themselves, The 70s A's hated each other and Charlie Finley and won three straight pennants. Then the Yankees won in the late 70s with their toxic team. So a harmonious clubhouse is not a prerequisite for championships.

Also, as you note with Cobb and McLain, individuals both crotchety and flaky have had tremendous years and even helped their teams win pennants or rings. The guys around them may or may not have hated them, but they dealt with it and still played as a team and, in many cases, won.

So if Eduardo Rodriguez waives his opt-in, pitches three full years to a 75 or 80 FIP-, and is a cog on the 2026 pennant winner, I would be all for that result.

I bring up clubhouse culture not because I require that for the team, but because that is one of the main components that Scott Harris and A.J. Hinch has said is a focus for the Tigers organization. They have said they want to foster a "culture of development, where everything and everyone can improve", and create a system that will "acquire, develop and retain young players". Implicit in that is a culture of teamwork, in which players will be expected put the team above their own interests. Not to set aside personal goals entirely, I'm sure, but at least to not act publicly in a way that calls into question the grip that management has on the system and its players. There's one guy above all of it who I assume is watching all this very closely, and is likely more engaged in what's going on than he might have been before. His impressions of all this, whatever those might be, will be very important.

If Eduardo Rodriguez flakes out again and creates the kind of chaos he has already done on at least two separate occasions in his short tenure here, it stands to reason that would create a danger of undermining that cultural strategy Harris and Hinch have put themselves in charge of implementing and overseeing. How they handle Eduardo now is crucial in how it affects not only their relationship with him, but also their relationships with the other players. In that way, I don't envy Harris right now, because he has to walk the very fine line between appearing to come down too hard on Eduardo and alienating veterans and potential free agents, versus appearing to let him totally get away with this all and possibly inviting other players to publicly act out in their own way. This is where he will really earn his salary.

Team culture matters when players don't toss extra inning games away because with a runner on 2nd they refuse to hit the ball to the right side or go for the kill shot hit.  This team has multiple losses just from that this season.  

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Team culture matters when players don't toss extra inning games away because with a runner on 2nd they refuse to hit the ball to the right side or go for the kill shot hit.  This team has multiple losses just from that this season.  

A completely different thing but I'm with you on that. They also need to get the right players in house, because no one could win with the current bunch, and that's gonna take time.

[Longgone]

13 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Team culture matters when players don't toss extra inning games away because with a runner on 2nd they refuse to hit the ball to the right side or go for the kill shot hit.  This team has multiple losses just from that this season.  

You think that's due to a poor team culture?

[romad1]

8 minutes ago, Longgone said:

You think that's due to a poor team culture?

 

18 minutes ago, chasfh said:

A completely different thing but I'm with you on that. They also need to get the right players in house, because no one could win with the current bunch, and that's gonna take time.

My frustration with them being in a bunch of extra inning losses is mainly because they had to fight their tails off to be in those games where being better in the first place would have avoided that outcome.  

The fact that Eric Haase can’t get a runner over and Javy Baez WON’T are just symptoms.   

[Tiger337]

35 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I bring up clubhouse culture not because I require that for the team, but because that is one of the main components that Scott Harris and A.J. Hinch has said is a focus for the Tigers organization. They have said they want to foster a "culture of development, where everything and everyone can improve", and create a system that will "acquire, develop and retain young players". Implicit in that is a culture of teamwork, in which players will be expected put the team above their own interests. Not to set aside personal goals entirely, I'm sure, but at least to not act publicly in a way that calls into question the grip that management has on the system and its players. There's one guy above all of it who I assume is watching all this very closely, and is likely more engaged in what's going on than he might have been before. His impressions of all this, whatever those might be, will be very important.

 

That sounds like bull**** that management people say all the time.  I am hoping they are better at it than the previous administration, but I think those are the kind of things that all management people want.  They'll make exceptions if a **** like Doyle Alexander is unbeatable for two months.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by Tiger337

[chasfh]

I don't think it's because Javy doesn't want to, as much as Javy can't. Would he like to be able to? I think he would. But he has never learned how to hit situationally on a regular basis, and at the tender young age of almost 31, he ain't gonna learn now.

Javy is a major league regular with a fat contract because he's an elite defender, a great baserunner, and, when he's right, can blast mistakes all over the park with astonishing regularity for weeks or even months at a time. If he could hit situationally effectively and control his zone regularly as well, he'd be on a Hall of Fame track. But he has a huge flaw that can be fatal to his performance, and that's definitely what we're seeing this year especially.

He's going to be here for another four years, so I might as well keep rooting for him while he's out there.

[casimir]

6 minutes ago, romad1 said:

 

My frustration with them being in a bunch of extra inning losses is mainly because they had to fight their tails off to be in those games where being better in the first place would have avoided that outcome.  

The fact that Eric Haase can’t get a runner over and Javy Baez WON’T are just symptoms.   

They're 8-7 in extra inning games.  Basically .500 which is probably what would be expected (maybe 7-8 since they're a below .500 team).

In fact:

Its a crude analysis, but the problem is getting blown out and not blowing out the opposition.

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

That sounds like bull**** that management people say all the time.  I am hoping they are better at it than the previous administration, but I think those are the kind of things that all management people want.  

They are on record stating this is the thing they want to accomplish, and if they fail at it, that would mean they're failing at putting a consistent winner on the field, and I would feel comfortable calling for their heads. Let's circle back in three years and see where we are then.

[casimir]

51 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Maybe, just maybe Rodiguez likes it here because it's more low key.  He went through something last year.   The media in this town (and the fans) pretty much left him alone.   Think he gets that in New York, Boston or Philly?      Maybe his wife hates Los Angeles.   I stay with a friend in LA for 8 weeks,  after 10 days I couldn't wait to get home.   It's not for everyone (unless you like endless generic strip malls and taking 2 hours to 10 miles).     He might actually want to stay here. 

Even if he doesn't, then we earmark that $17 million to another free agent next year.  

 

Now if he bolts and Chris Illitch/Scott Harris refuse to spend anything after lopping over $50 million off the payroll - yeah, then I'll be pretty pissed,

 

But again,  it's all about 2025.      It doesn't matter until then, really. 

It is highly possible he likes it in Detroit, sure.  And I agree, some people would prefer a smaller setting than a bigger setting.

I guess we'll see how much he likes Detroit at when its time for opt decision.

[Longgone]

5 minutes ago, romad1 said:

 

My frustration with them being in a bunch of extra inning losses is mainly because they had to fight their tails off to be in those games where being better in the first place would have avoided that outcome.  

The fact that Eric Haase can’t get a runner over and Javy Baez WON’T are just symptoms.   

Well, those two both have big holes in their swings and poor plate discipline, that's not cultural. In general, the best hitting approach is to get a good pitch, hit it hard and hit it where it's pitched. You'll just look foolish trying to take many major pitches the other way or altering your finely honed swing. Hitting behind the runner is kind of an antiquated concept, like bunting the runner over.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

They're 8-7 in extra inning games.  Basically .500 which is probably what would be expected (maybe 7-8 since they're a below .500 team).

In fact:

Its a crude analysis, but the problem is getting blown out and not blowing out the opposition.

Always true. Check out the one-run records of the 2003 Tigers versus the 2003 Braves.

[chasfh]

Whenever Eduardo Rodriguez says he "likes Detroit", or anything along those lines, I will take that with a mine of salt.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

They are on record stating this is the thing they want to accomplish, and if they fail at it, that would mean they're failing at putting a consistent winner on the field, and I would feel comfortable calling for their heads. Let's circle back in three years and see where we are then.

All I want is a consistent winner.  If they do it with a bunch of cooperative guys or like the 1970s Athletics it is not important. to me.  Chances are they'll get along better in their good years than in their bad years regardless of who is on the team.  

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Always true. Check out the one-run records of the 2003 Tigers versus the 2003 Braves.

No Tiger fan wants to go back to 2003.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Whenever Eduardo Rodriguez says he "likes Detroit", or anything along those lines, I will take that with a mine of salt.

That goes without saying for almost every player.  The only exceptions might be a Detroit native or life long Tiger.  

[gehringer_2]

58 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Maybe, just maybe Rodiguez likes it here because it's more low key

But that's not what  he's being dinged for. It he didn't want the deal all he had to do was say so in the beginning and everyone moves on you have two orgs and two fan bases that are still happy. By stringing people along to the last minute then either changing his mind of failing to extort the Dodgers for more money (which it was doesn't really matter), he ran out the clock on two organizations trying to make their teams better for their fans. 

You can say all that was within his contractual rights, and that is true. But if his team was dishonest with people, which seems the most credible reading for how they got to 4:30 Tues thinking they still had a deal, then the story is less innocent.

[romad1]

9 minutes ago, casimir said:

No Tiger fan wants to go back to 2003.

Its a really interesting comparison.   It really does show that talent matters and the small ball tactical stuff is just ... chrome on the bumper. 

Atlanta won 101 games but was below water in 1-run games 17-25.  That's interesting.   Their blowout numbers (wins of 5+ runs) was 37-19. 

Detroit lost 119 and was above water in 1-run games 19-18.   The blowout number was 7-40 UGH!

[SoCalTiger]

30 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Whenever Eduardo Rodriguez says he "likes Detroit", or anything along those lines, I will take that with a mine of salt.

I will call it bull****. He resides in Miami and the rest is about the $$ which was proven when he agreed to go for another 20 million which is fine IF you state that early and own it.

[SeattleMike]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

That sounds like bull**** that management people say all the time.  I am hoping they are better at it than the previous administration, but I think those are the kind of things that all management people want.  They'll make exceptions if a **** like Doyle Alexander is unbeatable for two months.  

One of the things I liked about Leyland. He always called BS on chemistry. I think the only real intangible he believed in was professionalism. 

[chasfh]

Good detective work by McCosky to find someone with a The Athletic account he can borrow login credentials from, read the Rosenthal article, and heavily paraphrase it here. I especially enjoy his lifting of the phrase “poison pill”. 

 

[gehringer_2]

33 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Good detective work by McCosky to find someone with a The Athletic account he can borrow login credentials from, read the Rosenthal article, and heavily paraphrase it here. I especially enjoy his lifting of the phrase “poison pill”. 

 

Granted all this, my argument still holds, which is that while he was within his rights to try to negotiate whatever he wanted,  after using a last minute demand at the deadline after a deal had apparently been agreed to on all sides,  he shouldn't be  surprised if people label him dishonorable. And of course it didn't get him want he wanted either. 

And If I'm Harris I'm not giving him that yr 4 @ $20M either unless I'm sure there will still be an off season market for him at 4yr @ ~17.25M AAV.

Edited August 4, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Shinzaki]

Would you offer ERod that one year extension at 20 million if he opts in ?