06/14/2023 1:10 pm EDT Atlanta Braves vs Detroit Tigers (Game 1 of Doubleheader)

[RandyMarsh]

I'm sure we would've been better off since it's hard to see things being any worse than how it played out with Avila but DD seemed to be losing his magic the last year or so he was with us. He made the great Fielder for Kinsler swap but after that it felt like every move he made turned out to be a disaster up until he left. 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

Which is all the more sad because of the breakdown in the successful team that the Brad hire created. 

How did Ausmus break down the successful team?  He wasn't a good manager, but he can only work with what he was given.  It was Avila who provided the players.  

Edited June 15, 2023 by Tiger337

[casimir]

13 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I'm sure we would've been better off since it's hard to see things being any worse than how it played out with Avila but DD seemed to be losing his magic the last year or so he was with us. He made the great Fielder for Kinsler swap but after that it felt like every move he made turned out to be a disaster up until he left. 

Now that you mention it, the polo shirts were looking a bit faded.

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

How did Ausmus braek down the successful team?  He wasn't a good manager, but he can only work with what he was given.  It was Avila who provided the players.  

lets focus on the non-success of 2014-2017 seasons with Brad:

• 2014:  a team with the best starting rotation assembled in the history of time and which will never be rivaled until the heat death of the Universe, the Tigers were ousted in that season's ALDS by the Baltimore Orioles in three games.
• 2015: a team with most of the players from the previous season was under .500 (note this is the season Dombrowski left -- so likely the disfunction in the front office was strong when all this is going down)
• 2016:  86 wins....2.5 games back
• 2017:  98 loses.... Mike Illitch dies in February 2017 so the real rot had not started yet. 

[Jim Cowan]

4 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

NICE FIRSTPOST I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GONE LAST YEAR AND ILLITCH NEEDS TO SPEND SOME MONEY OR SELL THE TEAM!!! ALSO FIRE HARVEY BAYEZ HE SUCKS!!! 

Go back to MLive where you belong. 

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Go back to MLive where you belong. 

You sure know how to welcome a guy.

[chasfh]

26 minutes ago, romad1 said:

lets focus on the non-success of 2014-2017 seasons with Brad:

• 2014:  a team with the best starting rotation assembled in the history of time and which will never be rivaled until the heat death of the Universe, the Tigers were ousted in that season's ALDS by the Baltimore Orioles in three games.
• 2015: a team with most of the players from the previous season was under .500 (note this is the season Dombrowski left -- so likely the disfunction in the front office was strong when all this is going down)
• 2016:  86 wins....2.5 games back
• 2017:  98 loses.... Mike Illitch dies in February 2017 so the real rot had not started yet. 

I think the rot started when Ilitch increasingly-desperate desire for a ring at any cost before he died led to DD liquidating our future for players to help us win now (by which I mean then) on his behalf. That Avila completed the crashing of this franchise into the rocks was less about him taking a successful franchise and single-handedly destroying it, and more about taking the helm of a ship already pointing toward the rocks. 

[Tiger337]

31 minutes ago, romad1 said:

lets focus on the non-success of 2014-2017 seasons with Brad:

• 2014:  a team with the best starting rotation assembled in the history of time and which will never be rivaled until the heat death of the Universe, the Tigers were ousted in that season's ALDS by the Baltimore Orioles in three games.
• 2015: a team with most of the players from the previous season was under .500 (note this is the season Dombrowski left -- so likely the disfunction in the front office was strong when all this is going down)
• 2016:  86 wins....2.5 games back
• 2017:  98 loses.... Mike Illitch dies in February 2017 so the real rot had not started yet. 

They won 90 games and made the playoffs in 2014 and lost in the first round.  That happens all the time to good teams.  Sure, they could have won a few more games during the regular season with another manager, but they still might have lost in the playoffs.  

After that, they lost Scherzer which was what truly marked the beginning of their fall.  Cabrera and Martinez got hurt in 2015 and Sanchez sucked and they really didn't have a great team.  Then they started shedding pieces.  

[romad1]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They won 90 games and made the playoffs in 2014 and lost in the first round.  That happens all the time to good teams.  Sure, they could have won a few more games during the regular season with another manager, but they still might have lost in the playoffs.  

After that, they lost Scherzer which was what truly marked the beginning of their fall.  Cabrera and Martinez got hurt in 2015 and Sanchez sucked and they really didn't have a great team.  Then they started shedding pieces.  

Is Brad why we only won 90 in 2014?  I think so.  Looking at our pythagorean w/l and we are only supposed to have won 86!  I find that shocking with Porcello, Scherzer, Verlander, Sanchez and eventually Price.   Justin Verlander was going through something that season as I recall. Something about the ball coming out of his hand in a way that batters were keying on.  His ERA was higher than his elitest years. 

[Tiger337]

37 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Is Brad why we only won 90 in 2014?  

There were a lot of complaints about how he handled the bullpen that year, so they might have won a few more with another manager.  On the other hand, they had a poor bullpen.  Maybe Fetter could have helped back then.  

[RandyMarsh]

That 2014 Tigers team was absolutely loaded on paper, it's not hard to believe that they got swept cause that can happen to anybody but it is hard to believe that they didn't win more. 

On offense they had prime Miggy, Victor(2nd in MVP), Kinsler(5+WAR), JD's breakout season, Hunter, Castellanos, a half season of Austin Jackson and Donnie Kelly Baby.

And of course we all know about the ridiculous pitching staff. 

From what I can recall though that was the year that they signed Nathan and he sucked, they then traded for Soria who proceeded to blow some games as well. 

Still though with all that talent and playing in a weak division you think they'd be able to win more games than they did. 

[RandyMarsh]

7 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You guys do a bang up job in welcoming someone new to the forum btw........

I personally didn't mean any harm by post, just thought it was funny that for the first post he/she brought up such a major question. Like didn't bother getting their feet wet just went straight to the deep end. BTW speaking of new posters I guess reddit is having major issues with many of their sub forums, if it keeps up I wonder if we will get an influx of new posters. I hope so cause I'd love to have more people around here assuming they aren't trolls. 

[Tigeraholic1]

15 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I personally didn't mean any harm by post, just thought it was funny that for the first post he/she brought up such a major question. Like didn't bother getting their feet wet just went straight to the deep end. BTW speaking of new posters I guess reddit is having major issues with many of their sub forums, if it keeps up I wonder if we will get an influx of new posters. I hope so cause I'd love to have more people around here assuming they aren't trolls. 

No you are fine, it was not directed at you. There are a few long time members that think they can say stuff like that. Kind of like the new kid at school walking around with his lunch tray and "those guys" are pointing and laughing at him. Slide their trays over to make sure there is no room at their table for him to sit.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

No you are fine, it was not directed at you. There are a few long time members that think they can say stuff like that. Kind of like the new kid at school walking around with his lunch tray and "those guys" are pointing and laughing at him. Slide their trays over to make sure there is no room at their table for him to sit.

Especially if the new kid is coming into the lunchroom shouting, "you know who really sucks at this school?" 😅

[oblong]

I like to point out that during the Tigers playoff runs in 2006 and 2011-2014... they only had home field advantage once, and that was because the AL won the ASG in 2006. In 2012 when they went to the WS they were neck and neck with the White Sox to win the division, trailing with about a week to go.  Tigers finished 8-2, Sox had a 2-10 stretch near the end to swap around.

the reason I say that is to point out that those teams were not as good as many Tiger fans often claim.  Making the playoffs 4 years in a row is an accomplishment but  you don't get carryover benefits.  

The 2014 pitching staff was deep, SP wise, but outside of Scherzer, the rest of the guys didn't have what I'd call great years. It wasn't like there was a question on who was the best that year, JV was hurt.  It was all Max.

 

[romad1]

26 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Especially if the new kid is coming into the lunchroom shouting, "you know who really sucks at this school?" 😅

Or prison...

[romad1]

13 minutes ago, oblong said:

I like to point out that during the Tigers playoff runs in 2006 and 2011-2014... they only had home field advantage once, and that was because the AL won the ASG in 2006. In 2012 when they went to the WS they were neck and neck with the White Sox to win the division, trailing with about a week to go.  Tigers finished 8-2, Sox had a 2-10 stretch near the end to swap around.

the reason I say that is to point out that those teams were not as good as many Tiger fans often claim.  Making the playoffs 4 years in a row is an accomplishment but  you don't get carryover benefits.  

The 2014 pitching staff was deep, SP wise, but outside of Scherzer, the rest of the guys didn't have what I'd call great years. It wasn't like there was a question on who was the best that year, JV was hurt.  It was all Max.

 

2012 was all about that trade to get Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante.   Big turn around in fortunes. 

[Tiger337]

57 minutes ago, oblong said:

I like to point out that during the Tigers playoff runs in 2006 and 2011-2014... they only had home field advantage once, and that was because the AL won the ASG in 2006. In 2012 when they went to the WS they were neck and neck with the White Sox to win the division, trailing with about a week to go.  Tigers finished 8-2, Sox had a 2-10 stretch near the end to swap around.

the reason I say that is to point out that those teams were not as good as many Tiger fans often claim.  Making the playoffs 4 years in a row is an accomplishment but  you don't get carryover benefits.  

The 2014 pitching staff was deep, SP wise, but outside of Scherzer, the rest of the guys didn't have what I'd call great years. It wasn't like there was a question on who was the best that year, JV was hurt.  It was all Max.

 

I agree.  It was a very good run overall, but they were never clearly the best team in baseball or in the AL.  They never had a 1968 or 1984 type season.  

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I like to point out that during the Tigers playoff runs in 2006 and 2011-2014... they only had home field advantage once, and that was because the AL won the ASG in 2006. In 2012 when they went to the WS they were neck and neck with the White Sox to win the division, trailing with about a week to go.  Tigers finished 8-2, Sox had a 2-10 stretch near the end to swap around.

the reason I say that is to point out that those teams were not as good as many Tiger fans often claim.  Making the playoffs 4 years in a row is an accomplishment but  you don't get carryover benefits. 

Right on. We never once had the best record in baseball during that nine-year stretch. In 2006 our record was fourth-best in in the game (and second best in our division). In 2012, they had the seventh-best record in the American League (and 11th in baseball). And in one of those years our record was 22nd in baseball. Not exactly ... how do the cool kids put it? ... dominate.

 

 

[SoCalTiger]

Sign Max  

Don’t extend  Miggy

Replace DD with a new age POBO like Harris

Keep Verlander 

That’s all. Results would be very different. 

[Tiger337]

41 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Sign Max  

Don’t extend  Miggy

Replace DD with a new age POBO like Harris

Keep Verlander 

That’s all. Results would be very different. 

I was in favor of all those things at the time.  I didn't mind that they extended Cabrera because it was Cabrera and I didnt think they were going to transfer his salary to new players if they didnt sign him.  However, it was easy to see that it would probably end badly.  Even without him, when you have two aces in your rotation and a strong GM, it gives you a chance to cobble together a supporting cast good enough to contend in a given year instead of being crap year after year.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Tiger337

[RandyMarsh]

The Tigers failing to develop any real home grown talent is what put them where we've been for nearly a decade now. Yeah we can bitch about the contracts, horrible trades etc. but the bottom line is if we even developed 2 or 3 legit plus players in the 2010s things would probably look and played out alot different. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I was in favor of all those things at the time.  I didn't mind that they extended Cabrera because it was Cabrera 

the Cabrera extension didn't bother me that much because I figured for Cabrera, the skill level was so high he probably would still have a chance to be decent hitter to his late 30s. Many of the HOF level hitters retained their hitting skill to near 40.  But the injury risk is always there for all players and it ravaged Cabrera. And yet still - you look at the last few weeks, when he feels good, the swing and eye actually are still not bad even at 40. There is still a hitter trapped in that beat up body.

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the Cabrera extension didn't bother me that much because I figured for Cabrera, the skill level was so high he probably would still have a chance to be decent hitter to his late 30s. Many of the HOF level hitters retained their hitting skill to near 40.  But the injury risk is always there for all players and it ravaged Cabrera. And yet still - you look at the last few weeks, when he feels good, the swing and eye actually are still not bad even at 40. There is still a hitter trapped in that beat up body.

My feeling was that he didn't have the body type and didn't seem to have the workout regimen to maintain health through his 30s.  I thought the same about Prince Fielder.  Maybe, I am just a biased sknny runner dude.  

[RandyMarsh]

I was actually worried more about the Verlander extension. He already had a ton of miles on his arm by the time we gave that to him and even though he didn't have any arm injuries up to that point history suggested that sooner or later it would happen. Also in the past 30 or so years virtually every starting pitcher that signed a big contract in their 30s ended up dropping off a cliff(non PED users), of course Verlander and Max ended up being the exceptions along with Randy Johnson.