07/14/2023 10:10pm EDT Detroit Tigers vs Seattle Mariners

[casimir]

  

Detroit Tigers vs Seattle Mariners

Watch:  Mariners - ROOTNW, Tigers - Bally Sports Detroit, National - MLBN (out-of-market only)
Listen:  Mariners - KIRO 710, Tigers - 97.1 The Ticket

[casimir]

I thought it might be nice to create a thread to collect thoughts about the upcoming Tiger game.  Maybe this will work.  Maybe it won't.  Let's try it out.

[SoCalTiger]

Hall of Famer Bill Freehan. Freehan, Lolich and Sweet Lou got robbed. Especially Lou.

[Sports_Freak]

6 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Hall of Famer Bill Freehan. Freehan, Lolich and Sweet Lou got robbed. Especially Lou.

Agreed. But the HOF loses credibility with the all time HR leader and the all time hits leader banned from being inducted.

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Agreed. But the HOF loses credibility with the all time HR leader and the all time hits leader banned from being inducted.

Hank Aaron is in the hall.

[RandyMarsh]

Freehan was before my time but looking over his resume I really don't get why he didn't make the Hall. I mean he was an All Star for 10 straight seasons so I imagine he was always looked at as one of the 2 or 3 best at his position for over decade right? You would think that would've been enough to get him but since this all happened before I was born I have no idea how he was viewed by the National media or what they really paid attention to when they were voting on the HOF.

Lou on the other hand I can kinda understand cause while certainly deserving the things he excelled at weren't really appreciated as much when he was up for the Hall, like if he retired 10 years later I think it's almost certain he would've gotten in. 

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Freehan was before my time but looking over his resume I really don't get why he didn't make the Hall. I mean he was an All Star for 10 straight seasons so I imagine he was always looked at as one of the 2 or 3 best at his position for over decade right? You would think that would've been enough to get him but since this all happened before I was born I have no idea how he was viewed by the National media or what they really paid attention to when they were voting on the HOF.

Lou on the other hand I can kinda understand cause while certainly deserving the things he excelled at weren't really appreciated as much when he was up for the Hall, like if he retired 10 years later I think it's almost certain he would've gotten in. 

When Freehan was eligible it was all about counting stats and he didn't play long enough to have huge counting stats. But he was as dominant in his league at his position over a 10 yr stretch as any HOF member, which to me is as good a definition of a HOF player as any.

Edited July 14, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

30 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Hank Aaron is in the hall.

MLB.com says that Barry Bonds is the leader.  Some say it is Josh Gibson.  

[oblong]

Did Freehan suffer because when he was winding down his career and becoming HOF eligible you had Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, and Gary Carter setting new standards for catchers?

 

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, oblong said:

Did Freehan suffer because when he was winding down his career and becoming HOF eligible you had Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, and Gary Carter setting new standards for catchers?

 

That is possible.  I think something similar might have happened to Whitaker and Trammell (initially).  

[Tiger337]

Catchers are undrerepresented in the Hall of Fame in part because they don't have as many plate appearances as players at other positions.  

[oblong]

26 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

That is possible.  I think something similar might have happened to Whitaker and Trammell (initially).  

Tim Raines too, although that got rectified.  "He's not as good as Rickey Henderson".  

"Well, not many were...."

I think the HOF voters during the 80s and mid 90s had too high of standards as they judged the players from the late 60s to 80's. Not every HOF member has to be a top 5 at their position and it seems the voters had that standard.  To me the HOF is about how you were rated against your peers.  I once saw a chart that showed the % of active players who would become HOF'ers and there was a marked drop, even adjusting for the fact it takes some longer to get in so naturally it would be lower until it "catches up"

 

[gehringer_2]

35 minutes ago, oblong said:

Did Freehan suffer because when he was winding down his career and becoming HOF eligible you had Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, and Gary Carter setting new standards for catchers?

 

sure - all the guys from the pitcher's era suffered by comparison with what came after, but probably especially catchers and shortstops.

[RandyMarsh]

9 minutes ago, oblong said:

Tim Raines too, although that got rectified.  "He's not as good as Rickey Henderson".  

"Well, not many were...."

I think the HOF voters during the 80s and mid 90s had too high of standards as they judged the players from the late 60s to 80's. Not every HOF member has to be a top 5 at their position and it seems the voters had that standard.  To me the HOF is about how you were rated against your peers.  I once saw a chart that showed the % of active players who would become HOF'ers and there was a marked drop, even adjusting for the fact it takes some longer to get in so naturally it would be lower until it "catches up"

 

Agreed about the peers part, also it's all in your mindset but to me I always put more emphasis on peak vs. longevity. I often go back to Johan Santana, he was off the ballot after his first year where as personally I would've strongly considered voting him in, certainly shouldve gotten more support than he did. My reasoning is that for a 7 year stretch he was probably considered a top 3 pitcher in baseball and for a few of those years he was seen as the very best. 

In my eyes if you are viewed as the very best pitcher on the planet for that amount of time you should at the very least be right on the cusp of the Hall of Fame especially since his career was cut short due to injury, it's not like he was elite for 7 years then was complete trash for a decade.

[gehringer_2]

as a Tiger fan, the extra irritation about Lolich and Freehan is the inconsistency. They say Freehan didn't play long enough even though he was the undisputed best at his position for mulitple years, then they turn around and say that even though Lolich finished his career as the all time leader in K's for a LH pitcher, it was only because he threw so many innings and played so long, he was never dominant enough. You can't have it both ways, at least one of them should be in the hall under any theory of HOFness.

Edited July 14, 2023 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

MLB.com says that Barry Bonds is the leader.  Some say it is Josh Gibson.  

It’s Hank. Maybe Josh. Not Bonds. Nobody hits more homers after 35 than before naturally. I can see him in the Hall but he’s not the legitimate HR champ. Selig messed up career stats. 

[RandyMarsh]

Don't want to go on a side bar about Bonds and the legitimacy of his records but one thing that I think doesn't get talked about enough about his numbers skyrocketing late in his career is him introducing the armored elbow pad. Once he switched to armored one he started crowding the plate more which in turn allowed him to choke up on the bat even more giving him even more control over it along with just being able to cover more of the strike zone.

Of course that isn't the sole reason for his insane numbers, there also was rapid expansion, PEDs and most importantly God given talent but I do think it helped him more than people realize or talk about.

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

It’s Hank. Maybe Josh. Not Bonds. Nobody hits more homers after 35 than before naturally. I can see him in the Hall but he’s not the legitimate HR champ. Selig messed up career stats. 

You can't just throw out stats.  Stats are not a reward for good morals and ethics,  They are a record of the game's history.  Hundreds of hitters and pitchers used PEDs.  It's not even practical to try to re-adjust all the stats to penalize the hundreds of hitters and pitchers who used steroids, amphetamines, etc.   You can say that you think Aaron was a better home run hitter, but Bonds is the all-time home run leader.  If I was going to select the best home run hitter, it wouldn't be either of them.  I still think that's Ruth.  

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, RandyMarsh said:

Don't want to go on a side bar about Bonds and the legitimacy of his records but one thing that I think doesn't get talked about enough about his numbers skyrocketing late in his career is him introducing the armored elbow pad. Once he switched to armored one he started crowding the plate more which in turn allowed him to choke up on the bat even more giving him even more control over it along with just being able to cover more of the strike zone.

Of course that isn't the sole reason for his insane numbers, there also was rapid expansion, PEDs and most importantly God given talent but I do think it helped him more than people realize or talk about.

Rapid expansion is not talked about enough. Anyway, I believe Bonds' numbers were boosted by PEDs (along with hundreds of other players) but he was already one of the all-time greats before anyone even started talking about steroids.  

[RandyMarsh]

I know PEDs certainly didn't hurt him and I know there are many benefits to them but I just question how much they really could've helped somebody like him. By that I mean you often hear the narrative that PEDs turn potential long fly outs into HRs but Bonds' HRs weren't wall scrapers, I recently watched a sped up video of all his HRs and I believe I counted 10 post 2000 that I would describe as "wall scrapers" or balls that landed within the first few rows behind the fence. The overwhelming majority were 420+ hit half way up the stands that atleast theoretically would've been gone even if you took some bat speed away. 

[Dan Gilmore]

20 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Don't want to go on a side bar about Bonds and the legitimacy of his records but one thing that I think doesn't get talked about enough about his numbers skyrocketing late in his career is him introducing the armored elbow pad. Once he switched to armored one he started crowding the plate more which in turn allowed him to choke up on the bat even more giving him even more control over it along with just being able to cover more of the strike zone.

Of course that isn't the sole reason for his insane numbers, there also was rapid expansion, PEDs and most importantly God given talent but I do think it helped him more than people realize or talk about.

This, very much this.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, RandyMarsh said:

I know PEDs certainly didn't hurt him and I know there are many benefits to them but I just question how much they really could've helped somebody like him. By that I mean you often hear the narrative that PEDs turn potential long fly outs into HRs but Bonds' HRs weren't wall scrapers, I recently watched a sped up video of all his HRs and I believe I counted 10 post 2000 that I would describe as "wall scrapers" or balls that landed within the first few rows behind the fence. The overwhelming majority were 420+ hit half way up the stands that atleast theoretically would've been gone even if you took some bat speed away. 

I think they helped him by extending his prime.  I bet Cabrera would have had a longer prime if he played in that era.  

[kdog]

Schoop cleared waivers and is a free agent.

[Adullin]

So which version of Eduardo Rodríguez will we get. Will it be Oaklands As game or the shut out of Cleveland game. 

[Sports_Freak]

5 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Freehan was before my time but looking over his resume I really don't get why he didn't make the Hall. I mean he was an All Star for 10 straight seasons so I imagine he was always looked at as one of the 2 or 3 best at his position for over decade right? You would think that would've been enough to get him but since this all happened before I was born I have no idea how he was viewed by the National media or what they really paid attention to when they were voting on the HOF.

Lou on the other hand I can kinda understand cause while certainly deserving the things he excelled at weren't really appreciated as much when he was up for the Hall, like if he retired 10 years later I think it's almost certain he would've gotten in. 

Lou and Tram shoulda gone in together. Longest DP combo in MLB history and that record prolly won't ever be broken. And Lou's numbers are as good as, or better, than many other 2nd basemen. IMO, which doesn't count, he should have already been in.