07/25/2023 6:40 pm EDT Los Angeles Angels vs Detroit Tigers

[holygoat]

17 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

That Haase-instead-of-Cabrera thing would have had me fuming a couple of months ago.  But it's almost August now, we've had to endure another 100 games of oh-so-clever lineup construction, and I pretty much don't even care any more.  You still notice that stuff and comment on it, but it doesn't make you angry now.

It pissed me off. I know the "race" is over for the Tigers, but they were in it long enough for me to remain invested in the remaining games.

[Jim Cowan]

1 minute ago, holygoat said:

It pissed me off. I know the "race" is over for the Tigers, but they were in it long enough for me to remain invested in the remaining games.

Are we "showcasing" Haase?  LOL!!!!  Like showcasing Grossman last year.

I think that this sort of move is how you start to lose the clubhouse.  All the players love Haase, and it isn't his fault that he got sent up there where he couldn't succeed, but the young players have to be side-eying him now and thinking "I thought we were trying to win?".

[Adullin]

I'm not ready to give up on the season yet. 

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Wtf.  Has to be Cabrera.

Hinch. So he he said he didn't want to use Cabrera because it would be "two for one" because if Cabrera got on -  then - he would have to run for him. Umm.....AJ, did you notice that if your PH didn't get a hit right there was no 'effin "then" to worry about?

I imagine there must be a universe somewhere where that all makes sense.

[romad1]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Hinch. So he he said he didn't want to use Cabrera because it would be "two for one" because if Cabrera got on -  then - he would have to run for him. Umm.....AJ, did you notice that if your PH didn't get a hit right there was no 'effin "then" to worry about?

I imagine there must be a universe somewhere where that all makes sense.

Who followed Cabrera/Haase in the order?  Perhaps they would have intentionally walked Cabrera.  Jake though...hmmm

Edited July 26, 2023 by romad1

[RandyMarsh]

I doubt they walk Cabrera but I guess you never know but assuming they didn't and the main goal was just to drive in the run from 2nd then Id put Haase chances at 15-20% AT BEST where as Cabrera's chances more in the 22 to 27 range and 30% at best so it would've been a relatively big difference. 

[casimir]

8 hours ago, SeattleMike said:

I view this factoid as a positive. .500 baseball for an extended period of time is a real triumph for this team, given the injuries and obvious roster deficiencies. I believe the Tigers are 2-games under since starting the season 2-9. Can’t be too upset about that. 

 

8 hours ago, kdog said:

They've had two horrible streaks during the season...the start and the 9 game losing streak. Aside from that, it's been a mid team

In a season where I didn't have much in the line of expectations, a 50/50 chance in any ballgame is an oasis from the past several years.  Baseball generally is a 50/50 proposition, but obviously the Tigers have found the under more often than not.  So, seeing prolonged stretches of .500 is better than what we've had.

And, yes, in addition to the injuries digging into the roster, the roster at healthy isn't really set up for success to begin with.  I think a lot of folks understood this as a bit of a transition or evaluation season, or some such thing.  It sucks because we're desperate for a winner, but given the changes made very late last season and into the offseason, well, OK, fine. 

But show the fans something next season.  Address the offense.  Cabrera, to his credit he's hit reasonably well enough this season, is a PH only hole on the roster that can be used for an actual full time player.  Make that happen.  Maton, McKinstry, Ibanez, and Short cannot all be teammates next season unless they are the absolute end of the bench rather than everyday/platoon pieces.  Greene, Torkelson, and Carpenter can go everyday and I think its fair to assume more maturity in their games.  Baez will be back.  I think Vierling shows enough of a complete game to be an everyday player.  Rogers is showing he can be a primary C.  That's 6 spots of a lineup, 5 everydays and the primary C.  Now, it isn't what I would suggest should be the top 6 of the order, not at all.  But in the American League Central, I think it can be a start to a competitive team next season.  Can they acquire a bat(s) for the top 3rd, middle 3rd, bottom 3rd of the lineup?  A leadoff hitter ahead of Greene and a proven RISP type of hitter (if one exists) to hit 4/5?  I don't know.

[Jim Cowan]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Hinch. So he he said he didn't want to use Cabrera because it would be "two for one" because if Cabrera got on -  then - he would have to run for him. Umm.....AJ, did you notice that if your PH didn't get a hit right there was no 'effin "then" to worry about?

I imagine there must be a universe somewhere where that all makes sense.

He's so much smarter than I am that I don't even try to keep up with him any more.

[oblong]

This is a game that shows how judging pitchers by ERA can be tricky.  

Granted defense goes both ways so you can't say "Well it should have been 6-2" or whatever because if you remove your own miscues then in fairness you remove theirs... but in evaluating pitchers, ERod deserved better.  His defense let him down.

 

[kdog]

I don't think there will be huge moves from the outside. They will add some talent with strengths on the margins(defense, speed, etc). You might see a decent investment in a good starting pitcher. For offensive development, it's going to be internal mostly.

Another take: Time has has run out for Akil Baddoo IMO. After the deadline, he should be replaced by Meadows. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by kdog

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, kdog said:

I don't think there will be huge moves from the outside. They will add some talent with strengths on the margins(defense, speed, etc). You might see a decent investment in a good starting pitcher. For offensive development, it's going to be internal mostly.

Another take: Time has has run out for Akil Baddoo IMO. After the deadline, he should be replaced by Meadows. 

I kind of agree that we might be seeing the end of Baddoo in Detroit.

I don't know what kind of moves from the outside will be made.  I know that players like Keith, Meadows, and Malloy are sitting in Toledo and on the cusp of MLB debuts sooner or later.  Ideally those guys can be brought up and not have to worry about producing in the top half of the lineup.  I mean, if they hit like they deserve to right away, great, but I would prefer they not be thrown into a situation where they are expected to right away.

1.

2. Greene, OF

3. Torkelson, 1B

4. Carpenter, OF/DH

5. 

6. Baez, SS

7. 

8. 

9. Rogers, C

They'll have an OF and DH/OF spot to fill daily from among Baddoo, Vierling, Meadows, and Malloy.  Is that a fair enough assumption for next season?  It seems like someone is not returning or someone gets stuck in Toledo as an injury replacement, or simply cut/traded away.

The IF spots seem less optimistic.  Keith is fun and on his way at some point, sure.  Maybe 3 out of the 4 spots being regulars is enough, but again, that's banking on success from a rookie that might not yet have a defensive position.  Gosh, it sure would have been nice for Malloy to work out defensively at 3B.  I doubt Harris would admit to it, but I wonder if part of the calculus for acquiring Malloy was simply part gamble that he could figure out 3B.

[kdog]

I'm also out on the meta discourse on how people should talk about Baez. The contract is a disaster. People can complain about it every night or they can accept that he is a sunk cost and just deal with it. I'm going to do both based on my own state of mind that day.

[RandyMarsh]

11 minutes ago, casimir said:

I kind of agree that we might be seeing the end of Baddoo in Detroit.

I don't know what kind of moves from the outside will be made.  I know that players like Keith, Meadows, and Malloy are sitting in Toledo and on the cusp of MLB debuts sooner or later.  Ideally those guys can be brought up and not have to worry about producing in the top half of the lineup.  I mean, if they hit like they deserve to right away, great, but I would prefer they not be thrown into a situation where they are expected to right away.

1.

2. Greene, OF

3. Torkelson, 1B

4. Carpenter, OF/DH

5. 

6. Baez, SS

7. 

8. 

9. Rogers, C

They'll have an OF and DH/OF spot to fill daily from among Baddoo, Vierling, Meadows, and Malloy.  Is that a fair enough assumption for next season?  It seems like someone is not returning or someone gets stuck in Toledo as an injury replacement, or simply cut/traded away.

The IF spots seem less optimistic.  Keith is fun and on his way at some point, sure.  Maybe 3 out of the 4 spots being regulars is enough, but again, that's banking on success from a rookie that might not yet have a defensive position.  Gosh, it sure would have been nice for Malloy to work out defensively at 3B.  I doubt Harris would admit to it, but I wonder if part of the calculus for acquiring Malloy was simply part gamble that he could figure out 3B.

Im higher on Vierling than most so I may be a little biased but Im confident enough in him that you could plug him as an everyday starter in the corner of and be fine.

I see him as a 110ish OPS+ guy with passable defense that isn't going to kill you. 

 

[casimir]

8 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Im higher on Vierling than most so I may be a little biased but Im confident enough in him that you could plug him as an everyday starter in the corner of and be fine.

I see him as a 110ish OPS+ guy with passable defense that isn't going to kill you. 

 

Maybe OF/DF becomes an arrangement of Greene everyday and then the starting lineup for the other 3 spots come from among 4 or 5 others based on matchups, who is playing well, offense/defense, whatever.  And as we've seen, even if one of the 1 or 2 others isn't starting that game, they're on call.

The other thing is that maybe this group is an opportunity to put Greene in a corner or DH more often if Meadows can hold his own in CF and at the plate.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

This is a game that shows how judging pitchers by ERA can be tricky.  

Granted defense goes both ways so you can't say "Well it should have been 6-2" or whatever because if you remove your own miscues then in fairness you remove theirs... but in evaluating pitchers, ERod deserved better.  His defense let him down.

 

I like looking at FIP- vs ERA.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

This is a game that shows how judging pitchers by ERA can be tricky.  

Granted defense goes both ways so you can't say "Well it should have been 6-2" or whatever because if you remove your own miscues then in fairness you remove theirs... but in evaluating pitchers, ERod deserved better.  His defense let him down.

 

Mistakes were made behind him, but he was also hit hard.  He wasn't as sharp as he has been in other games.  

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, romad1 said:

Who followed Cabrera/Haase in the order?  Perhaps they would have intentionally walked Cabrera.  Jake though...hmmm

Jake (2/4 HR) was the next batter, then the top of the order. You'd flat out send Nevin roses if he walked Cabrera to get to Jake. And the "2 for" made no sense anyway - if Cabrera gets on there happens to be a catcher that can't hit with good wheels available to PR.

Hinch had a brain fart and then fed the post game crew some CYA BS, and being well trained in Detroit sports lap-dog journalism they happily slurped it up.

Look, I get that the team should not be acting at the GM level with any illusions about the playoffs with respect to personnel. But that is a very different question then whether you still have an obligation to do you damndest to win every game on the field.

Edited July 26, 2023 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

...

6. Baez, SS

7. 

8. 

9. Rogers, C

...

Just my 2 cents but...

Against lefties I'd like to see Rogers at the 6 spot and Baez in the 7 spot.

And against righties Rogers 7 and Baez 8 or 9. 

[oblong]

I'll throw this out there.... Hinch doesn't make the moves, Harris does.  So you have to show Harris the data.  The data in this case is performance.

You have 25 guys on the roster and for better or worse they have to perform.  If you cannot bring out a hitter like Haase then why is he on the team?

[romad1]

29 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Jake (2/4 HR) was the next batter, then the top of the order. You'd flat out send Nevin roses if he walked Cabrera to get to Jake. And the "2 for" made no sense anyway - if Cabrera gets on there happens to be a catcher that can't hit with good wheels available to PR.

Hinch had a brain fart and then fed the post game crew some CYA BS, and being well trained in Detroit sports lap-dog journalism they happily slurped it up.

Look, I get that the team should not be acting at the GM level with any illusions about the playoffs with respect to personnel. But that is a very different question then whether you still have an obligation to do you damndest to win every game on the field.

Hinch is Gregory Peck at the end of 12 O'Clock High.  

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Just my 2 cents but...

Against lefties I'd like to see Rogers at the 6 spot and Baez in the 7 spot.

And against righties Rogers 7 and Baez 8 or 9. 

Oh, there's some movement available there.  The back half is in flux until roster spots are decided for next season.  If they were to makes moves such that Torkelson and Carpenter get shoved down to 5th & 6th with Baez and Rogers 7th/8th/9th, that'd slap.  (Do the kids still say "slap"?)

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, oblong said:

I'll throw this out there.... Hinch doesn't make the moves, Harris does.  So you have to show Harris the data.  The data in this case is performance.

You have 25 guys on the roster and for better or worse they have to perform.  If you cannot bring out a hitter like Haase then why is he on the team?

Dude, its 26.  Get with the times, old man.  😁

[gehringer_2]

15 minutes ago, oblong said:

You have 25 guys on the roster and for better or worse they have to perform.  If you cannot bring out a hitter like Haase then why is he on the team?

Well that was always Leland's argument. 'If a guy is on the team I'm going to use him until he isn't.'

But OTOH, in our case here the counter would be that Haase's role on the team is to be the backup catcher  - not a high leverage PH.

OK - If Hinch had made some kind of argument about the match-up, you could argue the validity of his data but at least his logic would stand up. What frosted me was his argument that he was trying to save the extra substitution. If you weren't going to use Cabrera, you were wasting his roster spot anyway so you've given up a player there exactly like you would when you pinch ran for him - and in fact it would even have been the same player - Haase. The result of a Cabrera walk or single and a Haase PR would be *exactly* the same outcome as Haase having a successful AB but with a higher probability. So that was garbage logic and we can certainly call him out on that part.

Edited July 26, 2023 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Well that was always Leland's argument. 'If a guy is on the team I'm going to use him until he isn't.'

But OTOH, in our case here the counter would be that Haase's role on the team is to be the backup catcher  - not a high leverage PH.

OK - If Hinch had made some kind of argument about the match-up, you could argue the validity of his data but at least his logic would stand up. What frosted me was his argument that he was trying to save the extra substitution. If you weren't going to use Cabrera, you were wasting his roster spot anyway so you've given up a player there exactly like you would when you pinch ran for him - and in fact it would even have been the same player - Haase. The result of a Cabrera walk or single and a Haase PR would be *exactly* the same outcome as Haase having a successful AB but with a higher probability. So that was garbage logic and we shouldn't give him a pass on that part.

A manager isn't going to bash his player and say what I said, they are going to give a bull**** answer. 

The result may have been what Hinch was expecting.  But he has to convince Harris of that.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

A manager isn't going to bash his player and say what I said, they are going to give a bull**** answer. 

The result may have been what Hinch was expecting.  But he has to convince Harris of that.

 

Ahh - you mean in terms of Hinch trying to send Harris a message? Yeah, that is certainly one angle on it. But jeesh, he can't  just pick up the phone and ask?

But to follow on that aspect, you can go the other way too. The story would run: Hinch has a soft spot for catchers - Haase has worked hard to improve his defense, Hinch appreciates that, is pulling too hard for him and maybe got too soft-hearted giving him chances to pull out of his slump.

Either take you think might apply - and maybe in some sense both - it wont go in my book as one of his best moves as a manager.