How to construct a Playoff/Champion worthy team, D Tigers V.2024+

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Skubal and Lange to STL for Dylan Carlson and Jordan Walker, move him back to 3rd

Wouldn't they get more for Skubal alone?

 

[Tiger337]

13 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Skubal is not the guy to trade.

It's Yamamoto and Josh Hader that we should sign.

 

I approve.  

[Tiger337]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:53 AM, mtutiger said:

As if Scott Harris' current approach hasn't lead to a ton of criticism lol

Every GM will get criticism.  I think Harris has received relatively little and I don't think he should have gotten much criticism at this point.  I do think if Harris or Greenberg or whoever is considered responsible for building the roster will receive more flack if they don't make significant moves with all the money coming off the books this off-season.    

[RandyMarsh]

Yeah Id be down with getting Yamamoto and Hader. Id prefer us to spend money on a bat but outside of Bellinger there aren't a whole lot that I like so we may be best served to sign premium pitching instead of signing offensive guys who may be upgrades over what we have but aren't premium in general.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

?  He’s probably a top-25 pitcher in the MLB.  He’s not a mid-back of rotation guy for almost any team.  I think you’re selling him short.

I know we see him that way. I don’t know that other GMs will.

If Skubal is at the level of ace of a world champion then I think we should not put him on the block. 

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I know we see him that way. I don’t know that other GMs will.

If Skubal is at the level of ace of a world champion then I think we should not put him on the block. 

Look at his numbers this season.  How many LHP hit 97 and have two other wipeout pitches?  He was elite this season, and has a reasonable contract. 

I get the injury concerns, but there should be none around his performance.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Look at his numbers this season.  How many LHP hit 97 and have two other wipeout pitches?  He was elite this season, and has a reasonable contract. 

I get the injury concerns, but there should be none around his performance.

I agree with you. We should keep him. 

[1984Echoes]

I would wait one year on position guys.

Sift through all these kids to see who sticks.

Starting at the trade deadline next year... We should have a better picture of:

Can anyone stick at 3B (not just hitting-wise; but with fielding and throwing across the diamond included too)? My money is on Keith being able to stick there. But we'll see.

Can anyone take and hold the 2B spot? We have LOTS of candidates, let's see who can stick. Keith, Jung, Maton, did they try Malloy there? And everyone is discounting Wenceel it seems. I believe he has a REAL chance to steal the starting spot there.

Is Carpenter real, or not? There may be some doubt after his finish this year. If he's real, he's good enough to stick. And be the LH'ed side of a DH platoon, if not the RF starter. If not, it may be smarter to move him sooner (if he still has value) rather than later (when he proves he either DOES have value, or does NOT have any value...). I would NOT bet against Harris trading him this offseason. I like Ratko's idea of trading him for Peraza. I don't know if the Yanks would even consider that... but that would be a nice calculated risk/ trade for Harris if he could swing that, IMO.

If Malloy pushes into a LF/DH spot and Carpenter is still here (and real) and can hold the RF/DH spot... then I'm comfortable with Parker in Center (I'm on board with fielding-first at Catcher, SS, and CF... so I don't mind lower batting averages there especially since Rogers has good enough power and a great glove, Parker also has some power but less than Rogers but great speed, CF instincts, and glove... and Baez... well... anyways); then Riley can play wherever is least damaging to his health, even if that means a lot of DH'ing in 2024... And Baddoo may even be able to squeeze in there somewhere, even if he spends half his time in Toledo...

I don't see any other pressing concerns in 2024 with position players.

Let the kids hash themselves out.

Starting at the trade deadline next year, if the team needs to make a move, then it can do so, THEN, or in the 2024-25 offseason. By trade, or FA, or whatever.

Again, I think the team needs to settle the pitching staff first and foremost. Who can remain healthy. Who is better in AAA or the BP. Who fronts the rotation (top 1-2 starters; everyone else fills in at the back-end). Who is suited best to close games? And who else fills in, in the BP.

That says to me I start with Yamamoto and Hader. And don't worry about position guys, at all, until later next year.

And if Manning is trade-worthy for 3 superior position player prospects in AA or single A this offseason (or at least 1 tp position guy and a couple pitchers added in...), then OK, fine... go for it. But that's minor leaguers, not MLB position guys.

Just my 2 cents.

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I agree with you. We should keep him. 

There’s the rub.  We need him, but he’s also our best trade asset to fix an offense that was one of the worst in the majors.

[chasfh]

Just now, Tenacious D said:

There’s the rub.  We need him, but he’s also our best trade asset to fix an offense that was one of the worst in the majors.

I wouldn’t agree with trading a picther at the level of the ace of a world champion. 

[Tiger337]

Depending upon the return, of course, I'd be inclined to keep Skubal.  The only reason to move him would be injury concerns, but other teams surely have the same concerns.    

[1984Echoes]

8 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I know we see him that way. I don’t know that other GMs will.

If Skubal is at the level of ace of a world champion then I think we should not put him on the block. 

He's at the level of a #2 starter, IMO.

He may even be a #1, but his health hasn't allowed him to prove that.

So a #2 starter on a playoff-level staff; maybe a #3 on a top, championship-level staff.

IMO.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I wouldn’t agree with trading a picther at the level of the ace of a world champion. 

He's at the level of ace short-term, but he needs to show he can pitch for a full-season before he's considered an ace.  

[Tenacious D]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I would wait one year on position guys.

Sift through all these kids to see who sticks.

Starting at the trade deadline next year... We should have a better picture of:

Can anyone stick at 3B (not just hitting-wise; but with fielding and throwing across the diamond included too)? My money is on Keith being able to stick there. But we'll see.

Can anyone take and hold the 2B spot? We have LOTS of candidates, let's see who can stick. Keith, Jung, Maton, did they try Malloy there? And everyone is discounting Wenceel it seems. I believe he has a REAL chance to steal the starting spot there.

Is Carpenter real, or not? There may be some doubt after his finish this year. If he's real, he's good enough to stick. And be the LH'ed side of a DH platoon, if not the RF starter. If not, it may be smarter to move him sooner (if he still has value) rather than later (when he proves he either DOES have value, or does NOT have any value...). I would NOT bet against Harris trading him this offseason. I like Ratko's idea of trading him for Peraza. I don't know if the Yanks would even consider that... but that would be a nice calculated risk/ trade for Harris if he could swing that, IMO.

If Malloy pushes into a LF/DH spot and Carpenter is still here (and real) and can hold the RF/DH spot... then I'm comfortable with Parker in Center (I'm on board with fielding-first at Catcher, SS, and CF... so I don't mind lower batting averages there especially since Rogers has good enough power and a great glove, Parker also has some power but less than Rogers but great speed, CF instincts, and glove... and Baez... well... anyways); then Riley can play wherever is least damaging to his health, even if that means a lot of DH'ing in 2024... And Baddoo may even be able to squeeze in there somewhere, even if he spends half his time in Toledo...

I don't see any other pressing concerns in 2024 with position players.

Let the kids hash themselves out.

Starting at the trade deadline next year, if the team needs to make a move, then it can do so, THEN, or in the 2024-25 offseason. By trade, or FA, or whatever.

Again, I think the team needs to settle the pitching staff first and foremost. Who can remain healthy. Who is better in AAA or the BP. Who fronts the rotation (top 1-2 starters; everyone else fills in at the back-end). Who is suited best to close games? And who else fills in, in the BP.

That says to me I start with Yamamoto and Hader. And don't worry about position guys, at all, until later next year.

And if Manning is trade-worthy for 3 superior position player prospects in AA or single A this offseason (or at least 1 tp position guy and a couple pitchers added in...), then OK, fine... go for it. But that's minor leaguers, not MLB position guys.

Just my 2 cents.

I’m aligned. The only exception for me is if you can acquire an upgrade or complement to Rogers.  Dingler looks a bit redundant to him.

Agree we should apply resources to the pitching staff to make it elite, or provide the depth to trade from later.

 

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

So a #2 starter on a playoff-level staff; maybe a #3 on a top, championship-level staff.

IMO.

Sounds like middle of the rotation to me. Not sure what we’re gainsaying, then. 

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I wouldn’t agree with trading a pitcher at the level of the ace of a world champion. 

Ditto.

And we have too many kids waiting to ALSO fix our offensive offense next year so I do NOT understand the impatience.

Let all these kids prove themselves, or not.

Just WAIT one freaking year before addressing the offense (not aimed at you chas, but at all the rest of the impatience displayed on this board...). Let's see what we've GOT... before spending capital on offense, whether that's a FA contract or trading several guys to fix a spot...

[Tiger337]

I think most of the young hitters won't prove themselves next year.  If there were good hitters available, I would want the Tigers to pursue them.  The reason I want them to pursue pitchers is it seems as if there is more of an opportunity to acquire pitchers than hitters this off-season.   

[Tenacious D]

Regarding of how we value our players, I hope we can all agree that our division is up for grabs. I’ll be disappointed if Harris and co. do not capitalize on this.  I’m not saying they should take a Dombrowski approach to live in the moment and let the future be damned, but there are moves that could be made to make us sustainably competitive much sooner.

[Toddwert]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Ditto.

And we have too many kids waiting to ALSO fix our offensive offense next year so I do NOT understand the impatience.

Let all these kids prove themselves, or not.

Just WAIT one freaking year before addressing the offense (not aimed at you chas, but at all the rest of the impatience displayed on this board...). Let's see what we've GOT... before spending capital on offense, whether that's a FA contract or trading several guys to fix a spot...

Impatience display?   your crazy heck lets wait another 7 years why not harris has to see what has with Max Clark after all

Edited September 30, 2023 by Toddwert

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Sounds like middle of the rotation to me. Not sure what we’re gainsaying, then. 

No, I think he's a top-of-the-rotation guy.

I consider the 1 and 2 starters to be at the top. And the 3-4 starters to be mid. And 5th/6th starters as back-enders.

So maybe it's semantics here.

But he could be a #1 for a lot of teams. 

I'm more comfortable having two top guys (Yamamoto/ Skubal just for an example), simply because of his health. But NOT his ability. He could even be the #1 guy in the Yamamoto/Skubal example.

The only way he would be a mid-rotation guy is if he's on a team with so dominant a staff that he ends up in the #3 spot.

This is reminiscent of our OWN prior staffs that Dombrowski put together when he had Verlander-Scherzer-Fister-Porcello, and then Verlander-Scherzer-Sanchez-Fister, then... Etc.

Are you saying one of Verlander or Scherzer is only a mid-rotation starter because they are "ONLY" a #2 starter?

Because I don't agree with that. I want a 1-2 punch (again), like we had before. And I consider guys good enough to be on a 1-2 punch to BOTH be top-o-the-rotation starters....

IMO.

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think most of the young hitters won't prove themselves next year.  If there were good hitters available, I would want the Tigers to pursue them.  The reason I want them to pursue pitchers is it seems as if there is more of an opportunity to acquire pitchers than hitters this off-season.   

I want the team to have 1-year patience to figure out what they DO have, for good or for bad.

That, and the FA market sucks this year for position players...

[Tenacious D]

I’m on board with letting Keith, Jung, Malloy and Meadows get regular time in the majors next season.  Could be boom or bust, but all have demonstrated that they are ready for this opportunity.

[1984Echoes]

4 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

Impatience display?   your crazy heck lets wait another 7 years why not

I'm pushing for 95+ wins next year.

How is that waiting another 7 years?

You are WAY off base.

[Toddwert]

Just now, Tenacious D said:

I’m on board with letting Keith, Jung, Malloy and Meadows get regular time in the majors next season.  Could be boom or bust, but all have demonstrated that they are ready for this opportunity.

i think you do that and have real major leaguers playing too... its not one or the other 

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, Toddwert said:

i think you do that and have real major leaguers playing too... its not one or the other 

Probably depends on your assessment of where Tork, Greene, Carpenter, Rogers and Baez.  Collectively, I would expect better offensive production from this group, but also a bit risky.