08/21/2023 6:40 pm EDT Chicago Cubs vs Detroit Tigers

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't want them to trade from the top of the system.  

I guess that would leave our current crop a year older, plus whatever we can get on the market and waiver wire, to win with next year. Fine by me. If we can see some real, even surprising, steps forward by young guys we have plus a Lorenzen-type pickup or two, it can happen. 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

You have those two issues with a 1b though. One is plays on batted balls, one is fielding throws. In his current state Tork is much better at the latter than the former but you *have* to have the latter if Baez remains your shortstop. Put an Alan Trammell over there and it's absolutely a different overall defensive calculation.  Javy is terribly undisciplined in his throws and he gets a pass because he is otherworldly with the glove, but it all relates; you can't get the value of Javy's glove without a 1B who is above average at managing his throws.

We've all seen Tork make great scoops here and there, although I wonder how he rates versus other first basemen? Is that even out there? If it is I haven't seen it.

[SoCalTiger]

4 hours ago, casimir said:

Well, this wasn't at all a jinx now, was it?

oops..sorry..have I mentioned about his Power potential ?

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I've put a lot of faith in Harris up till this point, but without seeing the return, I'd be questioning that faith if he did something like that. 

Really, with both Greene and Tork, I think the conversations being had are probably more about extensions (Greene particularly - Tork has had a nice surge but we'd like to see a little more consistency)

Agree, Greene is the guy who would rate that right now, and his signing on with us into his early free agent years would be a big message to the marketplace.

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

I suppose it’s possible Tork could become marginally better as a first baseman. He’ll have to keep raking in order to make it a relative non-issue.

Here’s a really out there thought: I don’t suppose Tork could become a trade candidate over the winter? Maybe someone like the Yankees, who have a primary 1B about to enter the AM radio demographic next year, might be willing to empty out the top of their system to get someone who appears on the brink. Not saying that’s what I would want, there’s a single-digit chance at best it would even happen, and it’s a completely wild idea, but I would trust Scott Harris to make a deal like that.

Bigbe plays first ....maybe Keith could..or JHM...point being it's not a hard position to fill and in my opinion we really need pitching. Lots of it. 

[LongLiveMaroth]

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

They are already close enough in the AL Central where they should be making moves that can help them win next year.  They can't keep rebuilding forever.  

Agree but you can still trade Torkelson and be better for next year if the return are also young  major league ready players. Selling high is dangerous but can work. 

[Tiger337]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I guess that would leave our current crop a year older, plus whatever we can get on the market and waiver wire, to win with next year. Fine by me. If we can see some real, even surprising, steps forward by young guys we have plus a Lorenzen-type pickup or two, it can happen. 

Re-sign Rodriguez or the equivalent, sign another pitcher like they did last year with Lorenzen/Boyd, trade a middling prospect for an old right-handed hitter with a year or two left on his contract (unless they can find one in free agency).  Bring up Keith and Malloy when they are ready.  That would be an entertaining team.   

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, SoCalTiger said:

Agree but you can still trade Torkelson and be better for next year if the return are also young  major league ready players. Selling high is dangerous but can work. 

Anybody is tradeable.  I just don't want to see Torkelson traded for prospects.  

[SoCalTiger]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Anybody is tradeable.  I just don't want to see Torkelson traded for prospects.  

Agree..as you said we have to be past that it's been seven bloody years...

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, LongLiveMaroth said:

gee, "only" 2.36?

We knew this one would be bad. The eye test is substantiated.

[mtutiger]

39 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I guess that would leave our current crop a year older, plus whatever we can get on the market and waiver wire, to win with next year. Fine by me. If we can see some real, even surprising, steps forward by young guys we have plus a Lorenzen-type pickup or two, it can happen. 

Setting aside the fact that they are going to have money coming off the book with Miggy's retirement and ERod's likely opt-out, I do think, to the extent that results on the field impact the thinking of free agents looking at the options, they have made themselves a more marketable destination over the course of this season versus what they were going into last offseason as well. Put another way, the team looks a lot less hopeless now than it did 300 days ago.

Granted the class of position players isn't great, but certainly I feel like they should have some options to backfill Eddie or even find the next Lorenzen should they identify that person. 

[SoCalTiger]

For the record I am ok with Baez , Meadows looks hopeful, Rogers seems ok but in reality we are still very woeful at the key up the middle positions of C-SS-CF- 2B  compared with the league and until we fix that going after a weak Central, which might not be so weak next year, is our only goal. Plus we only have a # 3 starter at best in Skubal if his arm holds up.

[LongLiveMaroth]

2 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

For the record I am ok with Baez , Meadows looks hopeful, Rogers seems ok but in reality we are still very woeful at the key up the middle positions of C-SS-CF- 2B  compared with the league and until we fix that going after a weak Central, which might not be so weak next year, is our only goal. Plus we only have a # 3 starter at best in Skubal if his arm holds up.

I would disagree that Skubal is at best a #3. 

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Setting aside the fact that they are going to have money coming off the book with Miggy's retirement and ERod's likely opt-out, I do think, to the extent that results on the field impact the thinking of free agents looking at the options, they have made themselves a more marketable destination over the course of this season versus what they were going into last offseason as well. Put another way, the team looks a lot less hopeless now than it did 300 days ago.

Granted the class of position players isn't great, but certainly I feel like they should have some options to backfill Eddie or even find the next Lorenzen should they identify that person. 

Even in a not-great class, I don't think we're competitive at the top end of that market even going into this year. Impact players want to go to teams ready to win now, not teams who look a lot less hopeless than it did before, and the marginal utility of a couple more dollars won't make a difference, because top-end free agents are already going to get more dollars than they'll be able to spend in several lifetimes no matter who signs them. I think we are still fishing in the Lorenzen pool this winter, and that's OK for one more year as we get this organization back on its feet.

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

For the record I am ok with Baez , Meadows looks hopeful, Rogers seems ok but in reality we are still very woeful at the key up the middle positions of C-SS-CF- 2B  compared with the league and until we fix that going after a weak Central, which might not be so weak next year, is our only goal. Plus we only have a # 3 starter at best in Skubal if his arm holds up.

Their catching situation is probably about as good as it's been for a long time, although that's a low bar.... they can compete with what they have IMO, though they'd have to get better production out of other positions.

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Even in a not-great class, I don't think we're competitive at the top end of that market even going into this year. Impact players want to go to teams ready to win now, not teams who look a lot less hopeless than it did before, and the marginal utility of a couple more dollars won't make a difference, because top-end free agents are already going to get more dollars than they'll be able to spend in several lifetimes no matter who signs them. I think we are still fishing in the Lorenzen pool this winter, and that's OK for one more year as we get this organization back on its feet.

The hopeful part is that they did a good job of finding undervalued pitchers in ERod and Lorenzen. If we can assume that was at least part skill and not 100% luck, and they can reproduce that accomplishment again at least in part, then that alone is a big piece. 

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Even in a not-great class, I don't think we're competitive at the top end of that market even going into this year. Impact players want to go to teams ready to win now, not teams who look a lot less hopeless than it did before, and the marginal utility of a couple more dollars won't make a difference, because top-end free agents are already going to get more dollars than they'll be able to spend in several lifetimes no matter who signs them. I think we are still fishing in the Lorenzen pool this winter, and that's OK for one more year as we get this organization back on its feet.

Yeah, I was thinking more of the middle-middle talent with my comment... even in that area, the Tigers were probably more at a disadvantage last offseason than they will be going into 24.

And that's OK.... if the goal is something like being "AL Central competitive" in 2024 and "Competitive competitive" in 2025, you can work with that imo

Edited August 22, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Yeah, I was thinking more of the middle-middle talent with my comment... even in that area, the Tigers were probably more at a disadvantage last offseason than they will be going into 23.

And that's OK.... if the goal is something like being "AL Central competitive" in 2024 and "Competitive competitive" in 2025, you can work with that imo

A late season run so we don't lose 90+ games yet again can't hurt.

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Anybody is tradeable.  I just don't want to see Torkelson traded for prospects.  

Yeah - JD is still a terrible defensive  OF but that hasn't stopped the keening for him ever since he was traded. Moving Tork for magic beans because we think we need a defensive upgrade anyway? For me that is too much in the direction of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Plus we only have a # 3 starter at best in Skubal if his arm holds up.

LOL - I have to agree with LLM that you're a tough audience for Skubal - his stuff is pretty good, but one can't argue (as per Edman) that the health risk will be high for him - esp in the the next year or two.

But as a general proposition, the pitching is a really big question Mark. The high optimism of 2-4 yrs ago has largely evaporated. Mize had not been dominant before the surgery, Skubal is a health risk, Manning is plateauing at a level still too inconsistent, Turnbull is....who knows? Faedo may stick but he's going to be a middling kind of guy. Wentz similar but even less. Olsen might turn into something. And the guy I'd try as a starter next Spring is Tyler Holton.  

In any case - too many question marks.

Edited August 22, 2023 by gehringer_2

[LongLiveMaroth]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - I have to agree with LLM that you're a tough audience for Skubal - his stuff is pretty good, but one can't argue (as per Edman) that the health risk will be high for him - esp in the the next year or two.

But as a general proposition, the pitching is a really big question Mark. The high optimism of 2-4 yrs ago has largely evaporated. Mize had not been dominant before the surgery, Skubal is a health risk, Manning is plateauing at a level still too inconsistent, Turnbull is....who knows? Faedo may stick but he's going to be a middling kind of guy. Wentz similar but even less. Olsen might turn into something. And the guy I'd try as a starter next Spring is Tyler Holton.  

In any case - too many question marks.

In my mind, this is what you probably have next year (health notwithstanding because let's be honest someone is going to get injured) 

#1 E-Rod or FA replacement
#2 Skubal
#3 Olson
#4 Manning
#5 Mize (TJ is just such a wild card for performance)
#6-9 Faedo, Wentz, One of the minor league pitchers (Madden, Montero, Gipson-Long, O'Loughlin)

If we sign another Lorenzen type I could see Olson getting moved out to the BP since his stuff would play really well there. 

[chasfh]

33 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah - JD is still a terrible defensive  OF but that hasn't stopped the keening for him ever since he was traded. Moving Tork for magic beans because we think we need a defensive upgrade anyway? For me that is too much in the direction of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

If Harris got the return for Tork that Avila got for JD, I might well abandon him at that point.

[Shinzaki]

Tork is a dynamic offensive threat who's generating some buzz...Greene/Tork/Carpenter has the potential to be a top level 3-4-5 heat of the line up.  I am not trading that...it seems so...Kansas City A's/Yankees

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said:

I would disagree that Skubal is at best a #3. 

That’s fair and I hope your right.