08/25/2023 6:40 pm EDT Houston Astros vs Detroit Tigers

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Never say never, ever;

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/870583-the-top-10-biggest-and-worst-collapses-in-baseball-history

FanGraphs says they have a 1% chance to make the playoffs.  That is better than the Yankees and Cardinals.

I think the fact that we are even having this "what if" discussion is why teams should always put a reasonably competitive team on the field. 

[1984Echoes]

43 minutes ago, casimir said:

On the other hand, Baez has given him a lot of practice last season and earlier this season.

Additionally... and I don't know if this means anything... 

But if Tork has gotten used to Baez's throws... at his feet, in the dirt, with whatever spin there is on them... and Baez by all accounts has given him PLENTY of reasons to get used to his particular throwing styles...

Then MAYBE... if Short is also hitting the dirt in front of Tork but with different angles/ or spin/ or bounces/ etc... Then Tork is getting handcuffed by the variations.

I don't want to make excuses for him.

But the duress on all these throws, and there's a ****load of them if he has by far the most "in-the-dirt" chances of any 1st baseman in MLB this year.... is all on his shoulders.

I'm not going to bash him for fielding. Not even for not picking up a few of these throws.

Instead: I'm going to ask for better fielders and more consistent fielders (not 6 different 3rd baseman and 6 different 2nd baseman... all with different spins/ accuracy/ angles/ etc...) next year in the hops that a ****load of BETTER throws will make him look a whole lot better than he does this year.

And if he's picked up 99% of these ****ty throws this year and missed 1%... by shear volume that says he's "missed" a crapload of these throws. Which, based on what I am stating above, and on what others have stated... does NOT make him a bad-fielding 1st baseman.

I think, instead, that he may LOOK bad... because of what others are doing with their volume of crappy throws to 1st base.

IMO.

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Additionally... and I don't know if this means anything... 

But if Tork has gotten used to Baez's throws... at his feet, in the dirt, with whatever spin there is on them... and Baez by all accounts has given him PLENTY of reasons to get used to his particular throwing styles...

Then MAYBE... if Short is also hitting the dirt in front of Tork but with different angles/ or spin/ or bounces/ etc... Then Tork is getting handcuffed by the variations.

I don't want to make excuses for him.

But the duress on all these throws, and there's a ****load of them if he has by far the most "in-the-dirt" chances of any 1st baseman in MLB this year.... is all on his shoulders.

I'm not going to bash him for fielding. Not even for not picking up a few of these throws.

Instead: I'm going to ask for better fielders and more consistent fielders (not 6 different 3rd baseman and 6 different 2nd baseman... all with different spins/ accuracy/ angles/ etc...) next year in the hops that a ****load of BETTER throws will make him look a whole lot better than he does this year.

And if he's picked up 99% of these ****ty throws this year and missed 1%... by shear volume that says he's "missed" a crapload of these throws. Which, based on what I am stating above, and on what others have stated... does NOT make him a bad-fielding 1st baseman.

I think, instead, that he may LOOK bad... because of what others are doing with their volume of crappy throws to 1st base.

IMO.

Very good points which illustrate the potential problem with too much mixing and matching defensively.  I know this is the overall tendency in baseball now and it probably helps offensively, but it may have unintended consequences on defense.  

[SoCalTiger]

We have the second most errors in all of baseball. Maybe too many players playing out of position?

[Jim Cowan]

Not every team obsesses about defensive versatility or L/R matchups.  The Braves for example roll out the same 8 guys, plus a catcher, every night.  That's the objective...find good players.  And then stop trying to prove how clever you are in lineup construction. 

[casimir]

16 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Wow, I was not expecting that kind of finish tonight!  

I called it, but since I watched it after the fact without knowing about it, I didn't post it.  I didn't want to ruin it for anyone that watched it live and then forgot about it and then started reading this thread.

[casimir]

6 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Not every team obsesses about defensive versatility or L/R matchups.  The Braves for example roll out the same 8 guys, plus a catcher, every night.  That's the objective...find good players.  And then stop trying to prove how clever you are in lineup construction. 

I can sort of see why it was tried this season.  They didn't have a regular lineup full of everyday players.  So, OK, fine.

But I think now they can say that they have their OF figured out for next season.  I think they can feel comfortable with Greene and Carpenter everyday and at the very least go with Meadows' defense and Vierling as a RHH OF.  I would say they felt comfortable only with Greene everyday and maybe Carpenter vs RHPs.

Baez will be back at SS and I think they we're seeing Torkelson turn the corner with his bat.

I think going into next season they've reasonably got 5 of 9 figured out.  If you want to include the catching tandem at the bottom of the order, I think that's fine as ling as they aren't expected on anything more than end of the lineup production.  So, 6 of 9 as opposed to the maybe 4 of 9 that they entered this season with.

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Not every team obsesses about defensive versatility or L/R matchups.  The Braves for example roll out the same 8 guys, plus a catcher, every night.  That's the objective...find good players.  And then stop trying to prove how clever you are in lineup construction. 

I think it's done mostly for money.  It's not because they have discovered a better way of line-up construction.  Versatile utility players and platoon players cost less money and allow teams to stay within. a smaller budget  There are some platoons that actually do work very well, but the more moving parts you have on your roster, the more things that can go wrong.  

[Jim Cowan]

11 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I think it's done mostly for money.  It's not because they have discovered a better way of line-up construction.  Versatile utility players and platoon players cost less money and allow teams to stay within. a smaller budget  There are some platoons that actually do work very well, but the more moving parts you have on your roster, the more things that can go wrong.  

I think it's done because the team has failed at finding every day players, and they have no choice but to platoon, and they have a manager who can't resist what some here have called "mix and match" but which in fact is an obsession with being the smartest person in the room, which causes him to play Ibanez in right field.

And it's fine, on a team as lousy as the 2023 Tigers it's not as though the manager cost them a World Series or anything.  

[gehringer_2]

17 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I think it's done because the team has failed at finding every day players, and they have no choice but to platoon, and they have a manager who can't resist what some here have called "mix and match" but which in fact is an obsession with being the smartest person in the room, which causes him to play Ibanez in right field.

And it's fine, on a team as lousy as the 2023 Tigers it's not as though the manager cost them a World Series or anything.  

I wonder, if a catcher, who pretty much plays his position alone, naturally underestimates the marginal defensive performance of you can get on a team where all the defensive players between the lines have been able to develop deep familiarity with their teammates tendencies and abilities. And of course since there is no metric for it, it won't exist in the analytics world, so it can't exist in reality either.

[Jim Cowan]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I wonder, if a catcher, who pretty much plays his position alone, naturally underestimates the marginal defensive performance of you can get on a team where all the defensive players between the lines have been able to develop deep familiarity with their teammates tendencies and abilities. And of course since there is no metric for it, it won't exist in the analytics world, so it can't exist in reality either.

I have been wondering that exact same thing, I have been wondering for a couple of years if a catcher thinks "anybody can play the outfield" because he played left once when he was 17 and it was no big deal.

[chasfh]

If Hinch were given three healthy everyday guys in the outfield with a solid healthy fourth guy, and he still ended up mixing and matching so that he would rotate seven or eight different guys out there while giving some of those solid guys a few dozen reps in the infield, then I would call for his head, too.