08/30/2023 6:40 pm EDT New York Yankees vs Detroit Tigers

[casimir]

7 hours ago, romad1 said:

I enjoyed that.  Lets get back to that. 

I'll second the motion.

[casimir]

6 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I agree but would like to see Carpenter at DH most days and Verling in RF for the defense and a real third baseman not an outfielder.

I think between occasional games off and opposing LHSPs and if the DH spot is available for Carpenter, Vierling is going to get some decent time in the OF next season.

I was in favor of the Vierling experiment at 3B.  Its been fine, but I just don't think he's an everyday bat for this team, and he's a better OF than 3B.

[alex]

9 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I am cheerfully disagreeing!  I want to be like the Braves, they roll out the same 8 guys, plus a catcher, every night and they don't give a crap about defensive versatility or L/R matchups.  They accomplished this by finding good players, not chess pieces.  What has changed, for us long time fans, is that the best athletes don't play baseball anymore.  They play point guard, or read option quarterback.  And that makes the Braves' accomplishment so much more impressive, and of course the best Caribbean or Venezuelan athletes don't play point guard or read option quarterback so maybe that's a clue.

I agree with the cheerful disagree! 😀

However, unfortunately Atlanta is one of the outliers that I mentioned, which occasionally can happen - and yet we are NOT thru the season and post-season yet.

Unfortunately recent history will show just about no teams have 6-8 starting position players posting/starting 150 games anymore.

Believe me I loved the days when we (as baseball fans) could rattle off starting lineups for most of the 'good' teams and the starters did play/start 150 games at 'most' (not all) positions. IMHO, there are several reasons why this simple does not happen much anymore (again, similar to SP's where teams simply do NOT have say 3 SP's giving them 200 innings, heck even 175) 🤕.

Edited August 31, 2023 by alex

[kdog]

9 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I am cheerfully disagreeing!  I want to be like the Braves, they roll out the same 8 guys, plus a catcher, every night and they don't give a crap about defensive versatility or L/R matchups.  They accomplished this by finding good players, not chess pieces.  What has changed, for us long time fans, is that the best athletes don't play baseball anymore.  They play point guard, or read option quarterback.  And that makes the Braves' accomplishment so much more impressive, and of course the best Caribbean or Venezuelan athletes don't play point guard or read option quarterback so maybe that's a clue. 

That's what I'm hoping for, a drafting/developing regime that produces good every day players, like the Braves did, and a regime that doesn't behave as though platooning is an objective and not a compromise. 

 

Good plan...that takes a lot of time, luck and precise development. In the meantime, I want them to try and compete on the margins while these young players are integrated into the roster.  You can't have so many black holes in your lineup while we are waiting for young guys.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, alex said:

I agree with the cheerful disagree! 😀

However, unfortunately Atlanta is one of the outliers that I mentioned, which occasionally can happen - and yet we are NOT thru the season and post-season yet.

Unfortunately recent history will show just about no teams have 6-8 starting position players posting/starting 150 games anymore.

Believe me I loved the days when we (as baseball fans) could rattle off starting lineups for most of the 'good' teams and the starters did play/start 150 games at 'most' (not all) positions. IMHO, there are several reasons why this simple does not happen much anymore (again, similar to SP's where teams simply do NOT have say 3 SP's giving them 200 innings, heck even 175) 🤕.

It's not so much a new thing though.  The idea that all teams used to have 8 starters starting evey game is also a myth.  There were more regulars 40-50 years ago, but injuries and platooning were common back then as well.   I still think teams should TRY to have as many regulars as possible, but be prepared for injuries and be effective with platoons.  I don't think it's necessary or beneficial to have a different line-up every day with players playing different positions all the time.   

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

It's not so much a new thing though.  The idea that all teams used to have 8 starters starting evey game is also a myth.  There were more regulars 40-50 years ago, but injuries and platooning were common back then as well.   I still think teams should TRY to have as many regulars as possible, but be prepared for injuries and be effective with platoons.  I don't think it's necessary or beneficial to have a different line-up every day with players playing different positions all the time.   

This is from Wikipedia article on "Platoon System". There are ample attributions, but still, sprinkle as much salt on it as you like.

History

The advantage to alternating hitters based on handedness was known from the early days of baseball. Bob Ferguson, in 1871, became baseball's first switch hitter, allowing him to bat left-handed against right-handed pitchers, and right-handed against left-handed pitchers.^[6] The first recorded platoon took place in 1887, when the Indianapolis Hoosiers briefly paired the right-handed Gid Gardner and left-handed Tom Brown in center field.^[7][8] In 1906, the Detroit Tigers alternated Boss Schmidt, Jack Warner, and Freddie Payne at catcher for the entire season.^[9] As manager of the Boston Braves, George Stallings employed platoons during the 1914 season, which helped the "Miracle" Braves win the 1914 World Series.^[10] No Braves outfielder reached 400 at-bats during the 1914 season.^[11] In 1934 and 1935, Detroit Tigers' manager Mickey Cochrane routinely platooned Gee Walker, a right-handed batter, to spell center fielder Jo-Jo White, a left-handed batter. Cochrane, a left-handed batter, also platooned himself behind the plate with Ray Hayworth, a right-handed batter. Also in the 1930s, Bill Terry of the New York Giants platooned center fielders Hank Leiber and Jimmy Ripple.^[1] The approach was seldom used in the 1930s,^[9] but Casey Stengel, managing the Braves, platooned third basemen Debs Garms and Joe Stripp in 1938.^[1] Stengel himself had been platooned as a player by managers John McGraw and Wilbert Robinson.^[10][12] Garms won the National League's batting title in 1940 with the Pittsburgh Pirates as a part-time player under Frankie Frisch.^[1]

Terms for this strategy included "double-batting shift, "switch-around players", and "reversible outfield". Tris Speaker referred to his strategy as the "triple shift", because he employed it at three positions.^[13] The term "platoon" was coined in the late 1940s. Stengel, now managing the New York Yankees, became a well known proponent of the platoon system,^[14] and won five consecutive World Series championships from 1949 through 1953 using the strategy. Stengel platooned Bobby Brown, Billy Johnson, and Gil McDougald at third base, Joe Collins and Moose Skowron at first base, and Hank Bauer and Gene Woodling in left field.^[1] Harold Rosenthal, writing for the New York Herald, referred to Stengel's strategy as a "platoon", after the American football concept, and it came to be known as "two-platooning".^[15][16]

Following Stengel's success, other teams began implementing their own platoons.^[17] In the late 1970s through early 1980s, Baltimore Orioles manager Earl Weaver successfully employed a platoon in left field, using John Lowenstein, Benny Ayala, and Gary Roenicke, using whichever player was performing the best at the time.^[18] Weaver also considered other factors, including the opposing pitcher's velocity, and his batters' ability in hitting a fastball.^[10] The Orioles continued to platoon at catcher and all three outfield positions in 1983 under Joe Altobelli, as the Orioles won the 1983 World Series,^[19] leading other teams to pursue the strategy.^[20]

"I'd rather be playing every day, but playing every day in the minor leagues is not nearly as pleasant as platooning in the big leagues."

 – Brian Daubach^[3]

Platooning decreased in frequency from the late 1980s through the 1990s, as teams expanded their bullpens to nullify platoon advantages for hitters.^[7] However, the use of platoons has increased in recent years. As teams increase their analysis of data, they attempt to put batters and pitchers in situations where they are more likely to succeed. Generally, small market teams, which cannot afford to sign the league's best players to market-value contracts, are most likely to employ platoons. Under manager Bob Melvin, the Athletics have employed many platoons,^[21] with Josh Reddick calling Melvin the "king of platoons".^[22] Joe Maddon began to employ platoons as manager of the Tampa Bay Rays.^[23][24]

The 2013 World Series champion Boston Red Sox platooned Jonny Gomes and Daniel Nava in left field.^[10] After the 2013 season, left-handed relief pitchers Boone Logan and Javier López, both considered left-handed specialists because of their ability to limit the effectiveness of left-handed batters, signed multimillion-dollar contracts as free agents.^[25]

[chasfh]

6 hours ago, alex said:

I agree with the cheerful disagree! 😀

However, unfortunately Atlanta is one of the outliers that I mentioned, which occasionally can happen - and yet we are NOT thru the season and post-season yet.

Unfortunately recent history will show just about no teams have 6-8 starting position players posting/starting 150 games anymore.

Believe me I loved the days when we (as baseball fans) could rattle off starting lineups for most of the 'good' teams and the starters did play/start 150 games at 'most' (not all) positions. IMHO, there are several reasons why this simple does not happen much anymore (again, similar to SP's where teams simply do NOT have say 3 SP's giving them 200 innings, heck even 175) 🤕.

Totally agree. Even though it’s a fun point of trivia for a team to run the same eight guys onto the field for 150 games, and it’s a nice throwback to how we think we remember how it was when we were kids, I don’t believe the Tigers are a bad team just because Hinch won’t play the same eight players in the lineup every day.

[Edman85]

If platoons and mixing/matching have increased in recent years, there are two contributing factors:

Teams are better able to parse matchup data using meaningful inputs. Not "x batter is 3 for 5 against y pitcher," but "The swing path of x batter is compatible against the pitch shape of pitcher y." Also, L/L splits tend to be extreme. If you want the same lineup and order against LHP and RHP, that is ineffective.

Teams know better about the importance of rest, and may be able to use biomechanics/analytics to know when players need a day off to recharge or reduce injury risk.

[Jim Cowan]

Hinch can't play the same 8 players every day because he doesn't have 8 good players.  

[gehringer_2]

8 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

It's not so much a new thing though.  The idea that all teams used to have 8 starters starting evey game is also a myth.  There were more regulars 40-50 years ago, but injuries and platooning were common back then as well.   I still think teams should TRY to have as many regulars as possible, but be prepared for injuries and be effective with platoons.  I don't think it's necessary or beneficial to have a different line-up every day with players playing different positions all the time.   

I think there is also a difference between having a left and right handed player at a couple of positions who pretty much always play the same position when they play, (as did the 84 Tigers), and constantly moving multiple guys to a variety of different defensive positions where you never end up with a defensive team that is collectively sharp playing together. I don't see that as any kind of virtue at all and I don't believe for a minute that the tiny offensive mix/match gained (since you are talking mostly about players that are not very offensively productive under *any* circumstance anyway) is worth the general deterioration of defensive run prevention it creates. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think there is also a difference between having a left and right handed player at a couple of positions who pretty much always play the same position when they play, (as did the 84 Tigers), and constantly moving multiple guys to a variety of different defensive positions where you never end up with a defensive team that is collectively sharp playing together. I don't see that as any kind of virtue at all and I don't believe for a minute that the tiny offensive mix/match gained (since you are talking mostly about players that are not very offensively productive under *any* circumstance anyway) is worth the general deterioration of defensive run prevention it creates. 

Maybe that’s because so many guys aren’t exactly killing it at any one position they’ve playing at? Or maybe the org is trying to make room for other guys they know are coming down the pipe? I’m thinking it’s really about trying to see which guys we have in house could be useful where, to see whether they can be saved and hang around for another season, or gotta be dumped.

Vierling might be a good example of that. We already know he can be an OK outfielder at times, but with Greene, Carpenter, and Meadows out there now, who are backed up by Baddoo, what do they do with Vierling? Release him right away? Let him rot on the bench for the rest of the season as a fifth outfielder only? Demote him (and replace him with who)? Any of those were doubtful propositions at the time. The org had to figure out whether he could be salvageable someplace else. You might remember some posters actually liked Vierling at third when he first was put there, until they saw he wasn’t really good there. But he’s been playing there still, because we have to put someone out there, right? So who’s banging on the door to push him out? Nobody I could see, at least until today and roster expansion. Now we can move 28th man Lipcius all over the diamond trying to figure out where he is most useful.

That’s just the way it goes with a roster full of guys who simply aren’t regulars, or at least aren’t ready to be regulars yet. We just can’t throw guys out there at the same one position all the time at this point. We're just not there yet. We were never going to have that problem solved by now. And besides, it’s not as though trying guys at different positions is costing us a playoff spot, unless you actually believe we could have made it with this roster had Hinch not 3D-chessed our way out of it?

Edited September 1, 2023 by chasfh

[Tiger337]

17 hours ago, Edman85 said:

If platoons and mixing/matching have increased in recent years, there are two contributing factors:

Teams are better able to parse matchup data using meaningful inputs. Not "x batter is 3 for 5 against y pitcher," but "The swing path of x batter is compatible against the pitch shape of pitcher y." Also, L/L splits tend to be extreme. If you want the same lineup and order against LHP and RHP, that is ineffective.

Teams know better about the importance of rest, and may be able to use biomechanics/analytics to know when players need a day off to recharge or reduce injury risk.

I agree on the importance of rest.  On you first point, do they have enough situational fielding data to determine how much is lost defensively by having players moving around so much?  I doubt it.

Another contributing factor is every team having 13 pitchers limits the number of bench players.  So, they want to do more mixing and matching and resting, but they haven't expanded the rosters enough.  28 players including 15 position players would allow for more platoons within sacrificing defense so much.  

[Edman85]

45 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I agree on the importance of rest.  On you first point, do they have enough situational fielding data to determine how much is lost defensively by having players moving around so much?  I doubt it.

Another contributing factor is every team having 13 pitchers limits the number of bench players.  So, they want to do more mixing and matching and resting, but they haven't expanded the rosters enough.  28 players including 15 position players would allow for more platoons within sacrificing defense so much.  

Well an increase in the last couple years could be because capping the amount of pitchers on the roster has mandated the removal of the 2 or 3 person bench that had become way too pervasive.